Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Reply Message
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: francis minvielle Sun, Feb 25, 2024 IP: 2a01:e0a:871:8270:f5

I need help to figure out:
1)the red circled kanji and censor seal of picture 1. I read aratame snake 7...
2)the yellow circled town names of picture 2
Thanks a lot!





Post a Reply
Name:
Email:
Group: China & Japan
Subject:
Message:
Link URL:
Enter here the complete URL of any site, page or image you would like to show other visitors.
URL Title:
Enter here the title of the link you've given above. This will appear to the visitor. Eg., if you are linking another picture, enter "Another picture". The link will not appear without a title.
Image URL:
Enter here the URL of an image if it is already uploaded on the web. The image will appear with your posting. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post.
Image: You may upload up to three images. If you would like to upload more images to this message please do so by replying to this same message.

Please make sure the file type is JPEG or GIF and the filename does not contain spaces.





Use the Browse button to find an image (jpg or gif) on a local drive on your computer to upload for including with your message. Do not upload images with file names containing spaces. Please do not upload files larger than 500 KB in size. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post. Check the "email notification" box below if you would like to be notified of any responses to your message.
Check here for email notification.
Security Code: Security Image: please enter the text appears in this image.

Please type in the code you see in the image directly above this input box.

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: Guy Wed, Feb 28, 2024

IMO, the combined date-aratame censor seal stands for the 7th month 1868 (Keiô 4, Meiji 1 from the 8th month on).

Characters:
樂板? 
忍 (Oshino?) 
岡部 (Okabe)

Guy.

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: francis minvielle Thu, Feb 29, 2024

Thank you Guy!
After your reply, I checked again the seals in my file of censor seals, and I feel the 7th month 1868 seal does not fit as well as the 7th month 1869 seal does... It is more obvious after a vertical line is added at the middle of the seal.
Regarding the unknown cities, I could not locate cities named Okabe or Oshino in Tohoku, so the "mystery" remains.
Take care!

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: Guy Fri, Mar 01, 2024

Hi Francis,

Must be 7th month 1869 indeed.

Guy.

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: francis minvielle Fri, Mar 01, 2024

Thank you Guy!

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: Horst Graebner Fri, Mar 01, 2024

On the first image I read:
村松 Muramatsu
x(kanji not found, I think no longer in use) today 与板 Yoita
三絛 today 三条 Sanjō
椎谷 Shiiya
髙田 Takada
糸魚川 Itoigawa

For the second image Lucienne reads (I have no additions):
川越 Kawagoe
岩槻 Iwatsuki
館林 Tatebayashi
足利 Ashikaga
忍 Oshi
岡部 Okabe
伊勢 Ise
Best
Horst

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: francis minvielle Sat, Mar 02, 2024

Thanks a lot to you both.
I forgot to ask you about this town 三日市 between kurokawa and niitsu. Can you read its name for me?
Also, I just cannot find any town named Oshi, Oshino or Okabe on the present roads which lead to the north. Could they be names for destroyed castle or other disappeared landmark...?
Another question: when I followed the ordered list of towns shown in my old map on a current Tohoku map, I found a few towns were misplaced (out of order) in the cartouche. Mistakes or what?? This woodblock print dates from 1869, right after the Boshin war.
Francis

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: Horst Graebner Sun, Mar 03, 2024

I searched the Japanese Wikipedia.

Oshi City 忍市- A municipality that once existed in Saitama Prefecture. The name was changed from Oshi Town (忍町) to Oshi City (忍市), and now it is Gyoda City (行田市).

For 岡部 Okabe I found:
岡部町 (静岡県)
Okabe Town (Shizuoka Prefecture) - A town that once existed in Shida District, Shizuoka Prefecture. Part of present-day Fujieda City (藤枝市).
岡部町 (埼玉県)
Okabe Town (Saitama Prefecture) - A town that once existed in Osato District, Saitama Prefecture. Part of current Fukaya City (深谷市).

Maybe this will help with your search.

Horst

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: francis minvielle Sun, Mar 03, 2024

It sure helps me a lot! I am not able to search the Japanese Wikipedia.
A very big thank you, Horst
Francis

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: Lucienne Parkan Sun, Mar 03, 2024

During the Edo period 三日市藩, Mikkaichi-han was located in Echigo province now Niigata prefecture.

Here are links to maps that will help you locate Mikkaichi
https://www.shiseki-chikei.com/%E5%B9%95%E6%9C%AB%E4%B8%89%E7%99%BE%E8%97%A9-%E5%9F%8E-%E9%99%A3%E5%B1%8B/%E5%8C%97%E9%99%B8%E7%94%B2%E4%BF%A1%E8%B6%8A%E5%9C%B0%E6%96%B9%E3%81%AE%E8%AB%B8%E8%97%A9/
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kawachinagano_Map_mikkaichi.png

If you post a picture of the entire map I'm sure Guy, Horst and I will be glad to help you solve the mystery.

Francis I don't think the domains are misplaced. You'll notice that under each one a distance is given.... unfortunately without a global view we won't be able to figure out the meaning of the map.


Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: Lucienne Parkan Sun, Mar 03, 2024

On this 1855 map of Japan you'll notice that Okabe is above Yedo (same yellow zone Musashi)
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1855_Colton_Map_of_Japan_-_Geographicus_-_Japan-colton-1855.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

Information about Oshi
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshi_Castle

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: Lucienne Parkan Sun, Mar 03, 2024

For details about Okabe and Oshi choose Kantō region, then choose Musashi Province (Present-day Tokyo, Saitama, Northern Kanagawa and Western Chiba Prefectures)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_han

On this 1855 map of Japan you'll notice that Okabe is above Yedo (same yellow zone Musashi)
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1855_Colton_Map_of_Japan_-_Geographicus_-_Japan-colton-1855.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

Information about Oshi
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshi_Castle


Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: francis minvielle Sun, Mar 03, 2024

Dear Lucienne and Horst, the 1869 triptych centered on Aizu castle shows the 6 main roads north of Edo towards Aizu and other Tohoku places in 6 cartouches. I figured out all places in the cartouches but those circled in red...for your help! I placed those ordered places on an actual map of Tohoku and I checked the adequacy of the distance from Edo in ri given for each town at the bottom of the cartouches. In the long cartouche of the middle panel, several cities on the left are in a wrong order, and it shows also when comparing distances to Edo. Is it a mistake from the artist?







Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: Horst Graebner Tue, Mar 05, 2024

Lucienne found this link https://archives.nijl.ac.jp/G000000253300/data/10190
and reads
結城 Yuki
完戸 Shishido
笠間 Kasama
棚倉 Tanagura
下村 Shimomura
忍 Oshi, today Gyoda City (行田市), prefecture Saitama

I have no explanation for the order of the names.

Horst

Subject:Re: help read kanji from Japan meiji map of Tohoku
Posted By: francis minvielle Wed, Mar 06, 2024

Thank you Horst,
and chapeau bas for Lucienne!
Just for fun, I drew the 6 ways listed in the 6 cartouches on a north japan map. Inconsistencies between order inside the cartouche and true geographical relative position on the map were found for northern cities of the red line...
Best,
Francis




Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |