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Subject:Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Norman Mon, Apr 18, 2022 IP: 2600:1700:d710:9750: Hello, would appreciate any help in identifying the seal and translating the text on the case. Thanks in advance. |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Mark Adams Tue, Apr 19, 2022 I believe its a Qianlong mark. |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Norman Wed, Apr 20, 2022 Hi Mark, thanks. I assume the attached photos will confirm your opinion that it is (1H) 20th century. I believe it left China in 1949 with my in-law's family (along with other Chinese objects I'm posting). Maybe the inscription on the case will shed light. |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Norman Tue, Apr 19, 2022 According to the Gotheborg site, it looks like a Qianlong 1736-95 seal. (Perhaps best that I have it examined in person by an expert). I would still appreciate a translation of the storage case label. Thanks in advance. Norman |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: I,Nagy Wed, Apr 20, 2022 Storage case inscriptiion, |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Bill H Thu, Apr 21, 2022 The seal mark on the bowl reads down as "Qianlong official kiln five-color bowls / one pair" (Qian long guan yao wu cai zhong wan / yi dui - 乾隆官窯彩中盌 / 壹對 ) |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Norman Thu, Apr 21, 2022 Gents, thanks very much. I'm not overly surprised by the 20th century attribution- the colors do look bright (and a bit garish to my taste). Maybe it was given as gift post- 1949- it wouldn't be the first time family memories about art objects are misleading. Regards, Norman |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: I,Nagy Thu, Apr 21, 2022 Correction、- I missed one character - |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Sun, Apr 24, 2022 Hi Folks, |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Norman Sun, Apr 24, 2022 Well- I take back the 'garish' comment. The bowl colors are (to my uneducated eye) pristine and bright (as are the bowls themselves). So hard to believe they are ~300 years old. On the other hand, they have been protected in the case for upwards of 70 years, if not longer. Again, assuming they came out in 1949, I can attest that the family was wealthy (I've visited the former stand-alone house in the French Concession district in Shanghai), and they did have a sizable art collection, of which only a small portable portion was taken out for obvious reasons (and then further subdivided among the descendants). I had debated joining and posting this (and the blue and white bowls which seem more obscure) on Gotheborg- I think I'll do that now, and let more in on the fun. In any event, my hope is that our descendants keep all of the objects I'm posting in the family for years to come. Thanks everyone- what we are learning will add to the enjoyment. |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Bill H Mon, Apr 25, 2022 Tony, I appreciate correction, especially by you, my long-time mentor and friend, as well as other experts. This time I offer up some observations in response. |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Norman Tue, Apr 26, 2022 Thanks everyone. In the meantime, I have posted in the Gotheborg forum; Michaela kindly responded with the same two possibilities, but admitted it is not her area. I can confirm that my bowls have white enamel in the teeth and claws- so if that is a definitive characteristic of late 19th- early 20th century manufacture- then that seems to be the answer. Furthermore, the seal does seem more uniformly blue (but not stamped- it is definitely brushmarks) than some of the M&P Qianlong I've seen on line (no 'bubbles'), but I'm not an expert. The Sotheby's example does seem very similar in style with similar dimensions (mine is 14.9cm diameter, 6cm foot diameter, and 6.5cm tall). Unfortunately, the other examples cited in the catalog entry don't seem to be online, and the exhibition catalogs are definitely out of print and hard to find. |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Bill H Tue, Apr 26, 2022 Michaela is a pillar at gotheborg. We got acquainted ages ago when I was a contributor there and recently became co-collaborators with author Gerald Davison in adding a lot of her archived |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Norman Wed, Apr 27, 2022 Hi Bill, thanks. Again, I don't collect Chinese porcelain seriously (my interests are in Japanese prints primarily), but I like to find sources for generalized statements because I've found sometimes assumptions get repeated until they become fact. So following up on your comments, I have found at least two references to M&P Jiaqing dragon bowls with white enamel dragon teeth and claws (Sotheby's Hong Kong 8 April 2011 #3133 and John Ayers Vol II Chinese and Japanese Works of Art in the Collection of Her Majesty the Queen #1106-1108). [Unfortunately, the online version of the Ayers catalog is truncated with only page 430 displayed, I would be grateful if someone could post page 431 and onwards as needed.] I guess the reference to 19th century in the Weishaupt catalog assumes the practice began later in the reign of Jiaqing. Fair enough. Apparently, to date, no one has found a M&P Qianlong piece with white enamel. The only examples I have found of white enameled dragon teeth and nails with a 'Qianlong' seal, are on Ebay (which almost guarantees a problem), such as the example below. I did notice something about many of the 'Qianlong' seals on Ebay, which I'll discuss below. |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Bill H Thu, Apr 28, 2022 The Qianlong plate shown at your eBay link appears to be fake. I searched liveauctioneers.com and found three Qianlong-marked dishes just like yours that were offered by different auction houses in Florida and California between 2016 and January of this year. The two California auctioneers drew no winning bidders, and while the April 2021 Florida lot was indicated to have sold for $1,000, that's a ridiculous sum when you consider what such a Qianlong period dish would sell for nowadays and speculators who don't know their stuff. (Images as attachments here.) |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Norman Fri, Apr 29, 2022 Hi Bill, thanks again. Please don't leave your soapbox yet on my account. We are fully in agreement that 'Qianlong' sealed porcelain sold on Ebay or Liveauctioneers are almost always suspect at best (just like early Japanese prints), and likely produced since 1970. I'm just trying to figure out if I can reasonably narrow down when my family's reproduced 'Qianlong-sealed' bowls were made- presumably between 1875 and 1949 based on your comments and the family history (other than me, nobody collected or bought antiques after my father-in-law's father passed away in the early 70's and he didn't have the means, or access to antiques, to buy after 1949). |
Subject:Re: Multi-colored Bowls- Translation/Seal Identification requested
Posted By: Bill H Sat, Apr 30, 2022 Period Qianlong marks of six characters in seal script have mostly have five prongs on the Qing character while others have three prongs on marks in both underglaze blue and iron red palace porcelains. Blue and red marks of that reign also look to be a mix of these styles. Below is a page from the Taipei Palace Museum's 1986 "Catalog of the Special Exhibition of K'ang-xi Yung-cheng and Ch'ien-lung Porcelain Ware from the Ch'ing Dynasty in the National Palace Museum" showing examples. |
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