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Subject:Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: Ger Fri, Sep 15, 2023 IP: 2a02:a46d:cada:1:c93

Please interpret the signature and seals on this scroll. This is what I got, the translation is from google.

signature: 自学斎 馬遠 self study worship Maen
seal 1 狩野馬遠 Kano Maen
seeal2 藤原 Fujiwara

Would this be a Kano school painter using as alias the name of the famous 13th century Chinese painter Ma Yuan?
If so which Kano painter - he is lot listed under this name at wikipedia:
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/狩野派



Subject:Re: Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: peter Sat, Sep 16, 2023

Your Readings are correct.
自学斎 is rather funny self given name.

I have never seen this before. The brushwork is indeed a mix of Ma (pine tree) and the Kanou tradition (outlines clothing). The painting in the painting is a Kanou-painting too (added an example by yasunobu). Quality is professional and good, not self taught.
So I would say its an insider prank to incorporate the famous Chinese painter with a twinkle into the history of the famous Kanou-School. It should not be taken too serious.

best wishes,
Peter



Subject:Re: Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: I.Nagy Sat, Sep 16, 2023

A small addition,
The Japanese reading of 馬遠 is Ba En (Ba'en).
I used to read somewhere that Kanō Tsunenobu made a lot of Ma Yuan copies.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: Ger Sat, Sep 16, 2023

Thanks a lot for your comment. So I understand it will remain a mystery who actually painted it, since the first seal is added rather jokingly? What about the Fujiwara seal?

Is it possible from the picture to give an estimate as to its age?

Thanks, Ger.

Subject:Re: Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: peter Sun, Sep 17, 2023

Yes it is difficult to attach this to a name as it is also intentionally changed style. The photo is a bit small to see the figures good.
It certainly is older than 1800 (mounting is earlier 20th century but used an older honshi). For Tsunenobu the brushwork seems a bit loose, but than he reportedly respected the Ma-School he would infect the whole Kanou education with this.
I anyway included the figures of a very fine Tsunenobu set so you could compare this.
peter







Subject:Re: Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: Ger Sun, Sep 17, 2023

some more detail:







Subject:Re: Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: peter Mon, Sep 18, 2023

With the details one gets a better impression of the brushwork. The quality is strong and the painting is better I would have thought first.
The faces look a bit different from what you can see normally also the hands are kept more formalistic. one has to expect of course a certain archaic character here. The quality shines especially in the outlines of the clothes. Here the way they are painted is rather early, more like painters work until the early 17th century. The lines are doubled up with color or lighter ink lines. From Tanyuu on nobody would paint like this any longer. There are many fine details in this painting. Things are carefully considered.
The Fujiwara seal is a regular Kanou seal. Here the shape is exactly the same as the second seal above, so its carved probably in the same stone on the opposite side. If the painter goes such a long way to carve the first seal for this painting, he also would carve the second new.
peter

Subject:Re: Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: I.Nagy Sun, Sep 17, 2023

The Kano clan was an old Samurai family from Izu Province and originally called the Fujiwara Minamike Kudo clan. The Kano School of painters who served for the Tokugawa shoguns derived themselves from this Kano clan.
A series of Kano School painters used Fujiwara seals, including Chikanobu, Naonobu, Tsunenobu, Tanshin, Tansetsu etc. What's more the engraving of Fujiwara seal that Tansetsu has used bears a striking resemblance to this seal.
In my opinion, judging from the condition of the scroll, it might be a not too old copy of the original.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: Ger Sun, Sep 17, 2023


did you refer to:
The reading of the seal is 藤原 Fujiwara
This seal can be seen on some works of 探雪守定
Tansetsu Morisada.
https://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=114670

Subject:Re: Please interpret signature and seal on scroll
Posted By: Ger Mon, Oct 02, 2023

I. Nagy wrote: "In my opinion, judging from the condition of the scroll, it might be a not too old copy of the original. "

Since the close-ups were posted above after you wrote this, I am curious to know your opinion about them.

Best wishes,
Ger.


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