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The last group is focus on Ming - Qing Dynasty jades. This group is all Shang-Zhou-Warring States period jades. They are 1500+ years older than the last group. Generally speaking, they are are more difficult to identify comparing to the Ming/Qing jades.

More pic will come when this post is up. Once again, they are not my collection; I am not a dealer in jade, but these probably are some the best old jade closeups you can find on English website. Enjoy!

Dear KK

You "must" tell where your samples are from. And there is no internet censorship committee to screen the "truth" on the net.

And can you educate "us" how those tool marks were made? And WHY they are more difficult to identify comparing to the Ming/Qing jades in your mind.

Have fun
Anita

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Anita,
If you spent a little more time reading my post. many of the answers you asking now were there in my first tool marks post. I list some museums, a Ming jade book, and talked about a wire cutting technique and so on. Too bad you were more interested in calling people "name" .

May I suggest you carefully study these close up pictures. They are loaded with useful information. It is time to reconsider many of your own theories. such as "parallel lines = modern" (see pic #2)

Dear KK

I asked you to "explain" with your knowledge that how those tool marks were made from? And how to identify it from modern fake. You posted pictures for people to view and realized that they are "authentic"...but "HOW" so? "How" to identify the difference like:-

1)How to identify it authentic comparing to modern fakes?

2)What kind of material of tools were employed?

3)how many technique were employed on each piece, for example:

3.1)Drawing by "what and how?",

3.2)First cutting by "what and how?", and what authentic tool marks we should look for?

3.3)Shaping by "what and how?",and what authentic tool marks we should look for?

3.4)Detail cutting by "what and how?",and what authentic tool marks we should look for?

3.5)engraving by "what and how?", and what authentic tool marks we should look for?

3.6)high and low motifs were made by ""what? and how?, and what authentic tool marks we should look for?

3.7)Hole drilling by "what and how?". Hole was first made or made after the piece was finished? and what authentic tool marks we should look for?

3.8)Rough polishing by "what and how?" and what authentic tool marks we should look for?

3.9)Luster polishing by "what and how?" And why tool marks still can be sen after polishing? and what authentic tool marks we should look for?

***********************
The grinding marks of your "parallel lines" (pic #2) is different from parallel lines that I showed you samples at your first proudly talk about tool marks.

Hope you could see the difference, and explain to us.

Pic # 2 is it from Christies'?
***************************


Have fun
Anita

P.S. Pls tell source of pictures and period of the artifacts.

Top 2 pieces appears to be correct, they have good natural patina and the cuts appears to be correct. The third piece is hard to say. Where did you buy these from? I'll post some pieces from my collection when I got time to take photos.

These are "parallel lines = modern" from eBay that I was talking about.

Have fun
Anita

You said:

Anita,
If you spent a little more time reading my post. many of the answers you asking now were there in my first tool marks post. I list some museums, a Ming jade book, and talked about a wire cutting technique and so on. Too bad you were more interested in calling people "name" .

My reply:
Is that personal attack?

I asked you to explain how to identify and how so different from Ming Qing jade in your idea? But you seem not to get the point.

When the books came out, and then you'll see those things from books appear in the markets with those books opened next to the pieces displayed in those shops.

Do you think that pieces in the shops put next to opened books are copies or authentic? That is an old trick.

While turtle is carrying mountain on its back on the authentic piece, but your piece has 2 snakes between mountain..is that iconography error?

---------------------------
You said:

May I suggest you carefully study these close up pictures. They are loaded with useful information.

My reply:
I do not think that sample from your collection is useful? Without any authentication from any "true" expert, and provenance. Your sample of open work Ming plaque shows no starting point of bow string cuts, the drilled holes were done after....to depict ancient process. I think it was all drilled and then used diamond file to grind it. Plus the stone was from bad stone with brown veins jumped from hole to hole which are surely not from burial environment.
------------------------------

You said:
it is time to reconsider many of your own theories. such as "parallel lines = modern" (see pic #2)

My reply:
If you can not see the difference between modern parallel and old lines I attached to your early post, I couldn't help. And I said many time that ancient work do have parallel but it is different from modern parallel lines.
---------------------------------


Have fun
Anita

Dear KK

Hope you can see the difference.

Have fun
Anita

Oh! I forgot.

The intellectual of the ancient artisan is not for modern faker can copy easily. And modern faker would not understand or ever think about it.

Ming belt plague can reflect the candle / lantern light in the dark in the Ming Dynasty time, the flat with high polish surface, crude sharp cuts and various of angle cuts will make it sparkling/glittering in the dark around the waistline of the wearer.

Hope you 'll see the difference between "authentic tool marks" on ancient work comparing to yours.

Have fun
Anita

Would someone be nice enough to enlighten me as to what kind of tool made the slash lines as the bottom of an enlargement of original pic #3. Is it a metal rasp?

Sorry my pic didn't show. Hopefully this one will.

The dragon belt plaque you label as “authentic Ming jade” is from my book Ming Jade. No long ago on Jan18, you said “Your jades are newly copied from books, and they have nothing to do with authentic Ming jade” (Mon, Jan 18, 2010 IP: 58.152.162.40). At that time you did not even know what a typical Ming style dragon craving is. So it is authentic to you now? Are you a little confusing?

I already post pictures of the back sides of both dragon plagues, they both show sling cut marks in various angles, not 90 degree straight cuts. Do you need to borrow my glasses to take a closer look? Most of your comment so far is ridiculous; they show you don’t even have basis jade knowledge as illustrated by your “spitfire monster” you post here in Asian Art Forum.


By the way, 90 degree straight cuts don’t mean anything. The jade craftsmen can make cut in any angles they want. You can see the straight cut example I post earlier from the Shanghai Museum. The point is no modern rotating cut lines there. Remember I asked you” what kind of modern tool can make cut marks as show in the picture with two black circles” and you fail to answer. The answer is None. Are you getting this? This is the same type of cutting.


All above example are from the Museums in China and there are a more Museum examples in my last post (tool mark #1) than you think. I suggest you don’t dig this hole any deeper to embarrassing yourself.

Here are the back side of both dragon plaques again.

Dear KK

You said:-

The dragon belt plaque you label as “authentic Ming jade” is from my book Ming Jade. No long ago on Jan18, you said “Your jades are newly copied from books, and they have nothing to do with authentic Ming jade” (Mon, Jan 18, 2010 IP: 58.152.162.40). At that time you did not even know what a typical Ming style dragon craving is. So it is authentic to you now? Are you a little confusing?


My reply:-

You made me so confused, pls read what I posted in that previous tool mark # 1 you posted. I did not say that the book you posted is a fake, but your similar Ming belt plaque that you are holding in your hand is a copy from that book with bad craftsmanship.

You said:-

I already post pictures of the back sides of both dragon plagues, they both show sling cut marks in various angles, not 90 degree straight cuts. Do you need to borrow my glasses to take a closer look? Most of your comment so far is ridiculous; they show you don’t even have basis jade knowledge as illustrated by your “spitfire monster” you post here in Asian Art Forum.

My reply:-

They are different, the sample in the book show mostly 45 degree but your jade is mostly 90 degree which are from drilling then use diamond file to grind the open work to fool your eyes as it was drilled and then cut my sling.

The modern fake have no time to use sling to slowly grind the open work with + - 45 degree. And you will see that the dragon of the authentic piece is flying above the glittering back ground while I made black and white picture, but your jade show nothing special but modern replica without any Ming Dynasty skill.

By the way, 90 degree straight cuts don’t mean anything. The jade craftsmen can make cut in any angles they want. You can see the straight cut example I post earlier from the Shanghai Museum. The point is no modern rotating cut lines there. Remember I asked you” what kind of modern tool can make cut marks as show in the picture with two black circles” and you fail to answer. The answer is None. Are you getting this? This is the same type of cutting.

Nobody have to use glass to see on the back of your repro Ming plaque. the space of the authentic from the book is tight, and the edges are sharp...but your jade are ground smooth. Pls see the difference.

Why this topic have something to do with my dragon?, if you need the answer of that you know where to find it!

You said:
All above example are from the Museums in China and there are a more Museum examples in my last post (tool mark #1) than you think. I suggest you don’t dig this hole any deeper to embarrassing yourself.

Here are the back side of both dragon plaques again.

My reply:-

If you can not understand the difference applied with my reason above you would be that person.

-------------------------------
1st Picture below is a book from you which I did not say that they are fake.

"Here are some similar jade plaques from a book on Ming jades. please see the same style dragon and tool marks. Anita, this is not a “fake book” from China."

2nd and 3rd Pictures below are your repro Ming jade.

Hope you see the difference in b&w pictures. I saw it, and I wish you opened your mind and try to understand ancient work which modern repro can not copy because it's a kind of waste of time.

Have fun
Anita

You said:-

By the way, 90 degree straight cuts don’t mean anything. The jade craftsmen can make cut in any angles they want. You can see the straight cut example I post earlier from the Shanghai Museum. The point is no modern rotating cut lines there. Remember I asked you” what kind of modern tool can make cut marks as show in the picture with two black circles” and you fail to answer. The answer is None. Are you getting this? This is the same type of cutting.


my reply:-

Why 90 degree straight cuts don't mean anything. It means a lot to show that your plaque is not from sling cuts with flipping of sling bow, it was from drilling by machine then followed up by diamond grinding file to fake sling cuts.

And you said "what kind of modern tool can make cut marks as show in the picture with two black circles” May I ask what picture? You posted too many pictures how on earth I would know which one you were talking about?.

Have fun
Anita

Hi KK,I thought those jade were from your collection, but yes they do look genuine as I said before. Thanks for sharing. To a experience collector it is not hard to tell the fakes from the genuine. Anyway you are quite right there are some visible tool marks in genuine antique jades as well but they are more subtle and in places you generally wouldn't see like at the back of plaques or in holes or onside of the object. One type of drill hole mark that is typical of old drilling technique has a center that is convex that looks like the pupils of an eye. That is one authentication sign. It is because the drills were spinning eccentrically. You may see it in my white qianlong period jade pendant in your other post.

Well, if there is no one to answer my query then, kk, could you tell me what tool made the diagonal parallel slash-like marks in the close-up I posted up of your #3 pic.

The dragon belt plaque you label as “authentic Ming jade” is from my book Ming Jade. No long ago on Jan18, you said “Your jades are newly copied from books, and they have nothing to do with authentic Ming jade” (Mon, Jan 18, 2010 IP: 58.152.162.40). At that time you did not even know what a typical Ming style dragon craving is. So it is authentic to you now? Are you a little confusing?

I DON'T UNDERSTAND, SO? THAT BOOK YOU SHOWED TO US WAS PUBLISHED BY YOU? AND MING BELT PLAQUE IN THERE IS NOT MUSEUM SAMPLE? AND I DID NOT SAY THAT SAMPLES FROM BOOK ARE FAKE, BUT YOUR MING PLAQUE YOU HELD IN YOUR HAND IS A REPLICA FROM BOOK. THE STYLE OF YOUR JADE IS TYPICAL OF THE MING DYNASTY BUT THE CRAFTSMANSHIP OF YOUR JADE IS MODERN.

I already post pictures of the back sides of both dragon plagues, they both show sling cut marks in various angles, not 90 degree straight cuts. Do you need to borrow my glasses to take a closer look? Most of your comment so far is ridiculous; they show you don’t even have basis jade knowledge as illustrated by your “spitfire monster” you post here in Asian Art Forum.

I IS SO DIFFERENT WHILE THE CUTS OF SAMPLE FROM BOOK IS SHARP AND SPACE OF BACKGROUND IS TIGHT, BUT THE ONE YOU HELD IN YOUR HAND THE SPACE OF BACKGROUND IS LOOSEN AND CUTS WERE UN-SHARPENED WHICH SHOWS THAT THE CUTS ARE FROM DRILLING AND THEN FILING TO COPY SLING CUTS.

AND MY DRAGON SPIT RAIN, DRAGON IS ASSOCIATED WITH RAIN, NOT FIRE. IF YOU SAID THAT I DO NOT HAVE BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF JADE, YOU MAY TEACH ME WITH YOUR EXPERTISE AND EXPLAIN WHAT ROBERT ASK ABOVE ABOUT TOOL MARKS.

By the way, 90 degree straight cuts don’t mean anything. The jade craftsmen can make cut in any angles they want. You can see the straight cut example I post earlier from the Shanghai Museum. The point is no modern rotating cut lines there.

90 DEGREE STRAIGHT CUTS MEANS EVERYTHING BECAUSE THE FACTORY WILL USE MOTOR TO DRILL YOUR JADE VERTICALLY TO THE PIECE. THEN GROUND IT WITH DIAMOND FILE. THERE IS NO MODERN ROTATING TOOL MARKS BECAUSE IT WAS POLISHED OFF. AND IT DOESN'T PROVE THAT YOUR OR ANY JADE IS NOT A REPLICA WITHOUT ANY MODERN TOOLING MARKS.

Remember I asked you” what kind of modern tool can make cut marks as show in the picture with two black circles” and you fail to answer. The answer is None. Are you getting this? This is the same type of cutting.

WHICH ONE? YOU POSTED MANY PICTURES.


All above example are from the Museums in China and there are a more Museum examples in my last post (tool mark #1) than you think. I suggest you don’t dig this hole any deeper to embarrassing yourself.

SIR, PLS KINDLY EDUCATE ME AND OTHERS, AND EXPLAIN HOW THEY WERE MADE? AND HOW TO INDICATE THEM ON ARCHAIC CHINESE JADE OF EACH PERIOD WHICH YOU SAID THAT THEY ARE DIFFERENT FROM MING AND QING JADE..SO THAT WE WILL NOT MAKING BIG MISTAKE OF BUYING FAKE AS GENUINE.

Here are the back side of both dragon plaques again.

IT IS STILL NOT MING DYNASTY CRAFTSMANSHIP.

ANITA

Dear KK

Hope my attachments would help.

Have fun
Anita

Robert,

Here is the answer, Bill and John already talked about it in a separate tool mark post.

The diagonal line was in cut on thin spinning wheel powered by foot (much like an old fashion sawing machine), lost abrasive and water was added on the wheel to make the cut. They did not use metal rasp. The question really is how this is different from the electric power diamond cutting disc. First the rpm is much faster in electric power tool so the grinding dis can be very small which making detail craving much easier. The foot power wheel is much slower so the disc need to be a lot bigger. This is why is fairly common to find over cuts in craving lines in old jade as show in some pic above. Jade craving in the old days is very time consuming so design are often simple and done in minimum number of cuts when possible, which give a unique style in jade craving. Tool marks and facets are often not removed; very little smooth modeling comparing to modern cravings. The classic example is the head of a Qing Dynasty belt hooks as show in Lee’s mirror. The head of the dragon was done in a number of straight cuts and one drilling hole on each side. I know that picture is not that great to show that. Curve cuts are done in a many tinny straight cuts overlapping.

Today Modern cravings are often better than old craving because it can be done in electric power tools much faster, so the artist can focuse on the designs. . This is why today’s fine hetain jades are often very well craved, of course, they are often more expensive than old hetain jade done in so-so cravings.

I will also try to answer your 2ud question on Lee’s Mirror. The huge blob of solder actually is a good indicator that the belt hook (handle of the mirror) is Qing dynasty. During the late Qing-early republic period, old jades were very cheap and large number of old jades such as this belt hood are make into tourist gifts such hand mirror, magnify glasses etc for export. IF you find an older mirror in this style then you can be sure the belt hood is Qing or older.

Lee,
I am glad to have more people like you and Oriental Treasures participate in jade talks. As I said before in both jade mark posts they are not my jade collection. But I post a number of my jades here before just search my name “ KK” , You can see them. Of course they are all fakes in the eye of Anita. Hopefully there will be more healthy jade discussion here not just everything label as faked by same person in the past year or two.


I will try to do a pre history jade tool mark post soon, which will focus on Hongshan jades, enjoy!

: KK I THINK YOU JUST FAIL THE TEST.

The diagonal line was in cut on thin spinning wheel powered by foot (much like an old fashion sawing machine), lost abrasive and water was added on the wheel to make the cut. They did not use metal rasp.

NO! THE DIAGONAL LINE WAS FROM THE TOP CIRCULAR EDGE OF CONICAL GRINDING TOOL WITH ABRASIVE GREASE (DIDN'T YOU NOTICE THAT IT SHOWS NO DEEP CURVE IN THE CUT? IN CASE IT WAS MADE BY SMALL DISC AS YOU SAID, THE CURVE CUT WILL BE NOTICEABLE), NOT SMALL FROM DISC (SEE ATTACHED). THE CUTS FROM SMALL DISC WILL LEAVE HALF CIRCULAR DEEP CUT NOT OPEN WIDE WITH SLOPE. (SEE ATACHED).

FYI…MODERN LAPIDARY TOOL ARE COPIED FROM ANCIENT LAPIDARY TOOL.


The question really is how this is different from the electric power diamond cutting disc. First the rpm is much faster in electric power tool so the grinding dis can be very small which making detail craving much easier. The foot power wheel is much slower so the disc need to be a lot bigger. This is why is fairly common to find over cuts in craving lines in old jade as show in some pic above.



NO! SIZE DOESN’T MATTER. SINCE MODERN TOOL COPIED ANCIENT TOOLS, THE WAY TO INDICATE ANCIENT FROM MODERN IS TO LOOK AT THE BACKWARD AND UPWARD LINES, AND ANCIENT GRINDING MARKS WILL MOSTLY REPEAT THEMSELVES IN THE SAME AREA.

THE FAST MODERN TOLLING WILL CREATE CRACKS ALONG THE EDGES OF GRINDING LINES.


Jade craving in the old days is very time consuming so design are often simple and done in minimum number of cuts when possible, which give a unique style in jade craving. Tool marks and facets are often not removed; very little smooth modeling comparing to modern cravings. The classic example is the head of a Qing Dynasty belt hooks as show in Lee’s mirror. The head of the dragon was done in a number of straight cuts and one drilling hole on each side. I know that picture is not that great to show that. Curve cuts are done in a many tinny straight cuts overlapping.

NO!

Today Modern cravings are often better than old craving because it can be done in electric power tools much faster, so the artist can focuse on the designs. . This is why today’s fine hetain jades are often very well craved, of course, they are often more expensive than old hetain jade done in so-so cravings.

NO!

I will also try to answer your 2ud question on Lee’s Mirror. The huge blob of solder actually is a good indicator that the belt hook (handle of the mirror) is Qing dynasty. During the late Qing-early republic period, old jades were very cheap and large number of old jades such as this belt hood are make into tourist gifts such hand mirror, magnify glasses etc for export. IF you find an older mirror in this style then you can be sure the belt hood is Qing or older.

FIRSTLY, THAT SWAN IN THE POND WAS DATED AS OF THE YUAN DYNASTY BY MR.LEE, THEN IT WAS DONE TO “QING DYNASTY COPIED YUAN DYNASTY” PLUS THE WHOLE SETTING (MIRROR WITH HANDLE) WAS SAID TO BE MADE IN THE QING DYNASTY. SOON AFTER I TOLD MR.LE TO FLIP THE MIRROR AND THEN I FOUND A BLOB FROM WELDING PROCESS, THIS MIRROR WAS NOW MADE DURING “REPLUBLIC” AND THOSE VALUABLE STONE WAS ONCE WORTH MORE THAN LIFE WERE MADE AS A CHEAP GIFT…!.....WHAT NEXT? HONGSHAN TOOL MARKS TALKING?

Have fun
Anita

Kk, umm, sorry, those marks could not have been done with a thin, foot powered spinning wheel or disc. I actually work a lot with a dremel tool and have extensively used thin disc attachments of various diameters to cut different materials and there is no way the cuts in your pic #3 could have been made with a thin disc attachment regardless whether it was foot powered, slow speed electric or high speed electric.

You're going to show Hongshan jade tools marks next? Even though nobody really knows(they only suspect) how they carved jade in prehistoric times. I am supposing you have at least had special access to the few excavated Hongshan museum pieces in existence and have thoroughly examined them? Which pieces? Which museum curator(s) let you do that? Well, I guess I know where this is going fast......

Here is the answer, Bill and John already talked

about it in a separate tool mark post.
The diagonal line was in cut on thin spinning wheel powered by foot (much like an old fashion sawing machine), lost abrasive and water was added on the wheel to make the cut. They did not use metal rasp.

KK I THINK YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG.

NO! THE DIAGONAL LINE WAS FROM THE TOP CIRCULAR EDGE OF CONICAL GRINDING TOOL WITH ABRASIVE GREASE (DIDN'T YOU NOTICE THAT IT SHOWS NO DEEP CURVE IN THE CUT? IN CASE IT WAS MADE BY SMALL DISC AS YOU SAID, THE CURVE CUT WILL BE NOTICEABLE), NOT SMALL FROM DISC (SEE ATTACHED). THE CUTS FROM SMALL DISC WILL LEAVE HALF CIRCULAR DEEP CUT NOT OPEN WIDE WITH SLOPE. (SEE ATTACHED).

FYI…MODERN LAPIDARY TOOL ARE COPIED FROM ANCIENT LAPIDARY TOOL WHICH CAN COMPARE TO EACH OTHER, BUT DIFFERENT IN DETAIL WHICH WE CAN STUDY FROM MUSEUM SAMPLES, REPUTABLE AUCTION HOUSES, AND COLLECTIONS THAT CERTIFIED BY "EXPERT".

OTHER POINTS YOU SAID UP THERE ARE ALSO WRONG, CHINESE JADE ART IS DIFFICULT, ONE COULD SPEND LIFE TIME OF HARD STUDY TO KNOW "SOMETHING" ABOUT IT.

PLS SEE PICTURES BELOW, HOPE IT WOULD HELP.

Have fun
Anita

Robert,I try to answer your question while no one else did, but you did not show any appreciation. That is OK . I will not respond to any more of your question and interpretation of wheel grinding and “the huge blob of solder”. Like the old monk said I can’t offer you a cup of good tea while your cup is already full of you own.

I probably have more “special access” to the museum piece than you can imagine.
And yes! All pre history /Hongshan jade pictures will come from some of the best known Museums in main land China and Taiwan.

"I probably have more “special access” to the museum piece than you can imagine."

YES, AS FAR AS I KNOW THE LOCAL GOVERNOR CAN NOT BE ALLOWED TO PERSONALLY TOUCH/OBSERVE ANY ANTIQUE IN MUSEUM OF HIS CITY. AND NONE OF FOREIGNERS IN MODERN CHINESE HISTORY HAVE ANY SPECIAL ACCESS TO ANY MUSEUMS IN CHINA, BUT SOMEONE LIKE YOU FROM OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA CAN.

WHAT WRONG WITH CHINA CULTURAL RELIC BUREAU?

Hi kk,

I'm sorry that you do not think I appreciated your answer. I assure you I did. I just think your answer is wrong. Furthermore, I am not giving you an "interpretation" of wheel grinding, I am giving you an "observation" of wheel grinding, since as an artist, I grind and cut different materials daily, including stone.

I wouldn't mind taking you up on your offer of filling my tea cup, but you have no tea, just a big empty tea pot. It reminds me of another good saying, "Empty vessels make the most noise."

I suspect you not wanting to respond to any more of my questions is not because you find me unappreciative of your answers but because you just can't answer. There is no way you can have special access to the few excavated Hongshan museum pieces in existence. There is no way you can thoroughly examined them. There is no way any museum curator(s) worth his/her/their salt would let you do that. There, I've saved you the trouble and answered everything for you.

Hi Rob, obviously you have no experience with jade. The mark you pointed out could be a finger print or a fabric mark or plant material. A blop of solder could be a old repair. Collecting jade cannot be learn from reading books it comes with experience handling the real stuff. Unfortunately the price of authentic jade pieces have soared recently. Years ago one could get a nice piece of jade from auction house in london for a few hundred pounds but these days you don't get much for 10,000 pounds. It is now a elite's past time not for a lay person. That is why I have not bought anything for years. Almost all jade in HK hollywood road or in antique markets are now fakes. They are everywhere., so I don't blame you being suspicious.

A blob is a welding material possibly a lead.

Absolutely not finger print or a fabric mark or plant material...those dirt can be cleaned with simple cotton cloth rubbing.

Have fun
Anita

Sorry, I meant your mirror has blob from welding.
------------------
But on jade that Robert asked, I don't know, and not finger print because Chinese museum staffs wear white cotton gloves to handle all antiquities.

Without closer pictures nobody knows.

Anita, obviously you have not much experience with Chinese antiques including jade, picking on a bit of solder as a confirmation of your belive. Sorry to say but you are wrong. Any experienced Chinese bronze or metal work collector would know that solder is commonly used to joint bronzes and for repair since the Han dynasty. It is even used to fuse the little copper wire to the bronze body in cloisonne work. Here is some solder repair on a 12-14 century Song dynasty bronze vase, purchased from Christies London several years ago.

Lee, obviously you have not much experience with Chinese antiques including jade, picking on a bit of solder as a confirmation of your belive. Sorry to say but you are wrong.

That solder you saw on Christies' bronze was not confirmed that it was from ancient welding work. It could be from glue, or welding by lead from modern time. It would be nice if you could provide information of that Christies' bronze you showed, and Christies' paper said that "ancient repair by solder process"

If you melt bronze then pour it on the broken piece to link bronze it would not stick on it. Off course ancient time had no welding tool from gas as well as electricity to do that.

Why have to repair it?, they would throw broken bronze in the melting pot to recycle it.

I have never seen repaired Chinese ancient bronze, why have to repair them, unless those broken pot is used as a pot again which seem to be impossible, Chinese will not use broken container in their houses...it is a sign of "bad luck". And nobody repairs bronze..those stuff can be recycled.

Have fun
Anita

P.S.I have never seen repaired bronze by solder technique in Museums and antique shops in HK, and China.

Anita, how many years have you been collecting Chinese art for? Solder has been used to join gold, silver, brass and bronze since the Han dynasty or earlier. Next time there is a Chinese auction, one coming up in New York in March check out the condition report. You will be surprise to see how much repair and solder repair there are on metal works-silver,gold, cloisonee or bronzes.

Nice indeed, 100% educational thank you!

Anita...mmm...

Are you sure？

Yes! Your famous 'tool marks theory'...I'm not a big fan...

I feel bad when I see such good pieces being trashed for no reason...anyway...

First quality stuff here.

一眼货！！！

Pipane

Anita, this is my proof that you were wrong as usual and inexperience. You pick on the solder and guess what this mirror has a solder repair as well. Just read the condition report. lot 1087 in sale 2297 in New York March 26. A jade plaque from the Yuan dynasty with associated metal framed hand glass mirror. This one comes from the George Bruel collection. If you read the condition report it will say the is sign of solder in one side where the frame is attached to the mirror. Bingo!!! exactly the same as my hand mirror with the authentic Song/ yuan jade plaque. We will see how much this piece fetch on the 25th of March.

The condition report is only for people with customer id.

Why they took jade plaque out of the metal framed hand glass mirror? Why not take picture of the whole piece? What to hide?

No glass mirror and solder found in the Yuan.

Samuel, you need to sign up with Christies to access their condition report. You must be collecting at a different level. Obviously you are not a Beijing resident, have you not heard that at the end of the Ching dynasty and early republic era, when Puyi was a child the palace treasury was ransacked by eunuchs and officials and other princes. Some of these small jade plaque that were stolen were made into mirrors and boxes and sold to foreigners as souvineers. Lots of antiques were sold to foreigners. That was how major Western collections like Percival David's collection were put together in the early 20th century. You can about Percival David Foundation - a collection at the British Museum on Wilkipedia.

After signing up with Christies:-

"Before viewing the online condition report for this lot, please provide your telephone number. A Department Specialist may contact you via phone or email to discuss this lot or to notify you if the condition of this lot changes prior to the sale."

Do you have condition report in writing from them?

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