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Dear All

A quote from Dr. Berthold Laufer;

"A sound open-door policy in this field carried out in a fair-minded spirit of sympathetic cooperation would be a desirable and refreshing program which may lead to fruitful results. The field is new and wide, and there is room for many platforms. A sane and whole-hearted exposition of any Chinese subject through an experienced art-student will always be welcome; a fair and impartial criticism or suggestion of an outsider or newcomer to this branch of science may prove as a stimulus to greater efforts. We are all inquirers and seekers for the truth, and everybody has to learn, and everybody is liable to commit errors where the field is virgin. But dictatorial positiveness of judgement based on insufficient material and facts is surely detrimental to the good cause."

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The above phase is very moving, isn't it? pls feel fee to talk about Chinese with "FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT". Pls click the link below.

Link :http://www.translucentworld.com/forum/phpBB3/index.php

Dear all

The link from the AAF does not work for address with php.

You may copy and paste the link on your web browser, and/or click the link below.

Have fun
Anita

P.S. Anthony Lee, Thank you for your kind support as always.

URL Title :http://www.translucentworld.com

CORRECTION:-

The above phase is very moving, isn't it? pls feel fee to talk about "CHINESE JADE" with "FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT". Pls click the link below.
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Sorry, I was so sleepy.

Have fun
Anita

dear Anita,

do you think these ,ming_tamo.jpg & war001a.jpg, are antique chinese jade pieces dated as you named ?

http://www.translucentworld.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3

regards,
senztone

Dear senztone

Attached are tool marks compared to Museum piece, warring states jade knot picker, one of the collection of Qianlong Emperor, displayed at National Palace Museum Teipei.

Pls feel free to cast your opinion.

Have fun
Anita Mui

dear Anita,


please, think again.
it's the problem about authenticity.

lacking of modern tool marks isn't mean authenticity.
there are many aspects concerned.

lustre, how evenly it be?
the face is so glossy ,maybe too much, while the back is so dull. why?

state of arts ,a spirit within.
unappealable face...
the way the eyes look ,unsymmetrical shape of nose ,and her smile.

function.
design to be a jade pendant by its wearing hole with unnecessary part of back head that should has been cut-off to be flat.
imaginative carving...

soulless piece came from warring state period ???

good night,
senztone

Dear senztone

I have never seen your valuable opinion about anything here. Your knowledge without any reference do not help. Pls do some research..then we can talk.

And pls cast your opinion down there with some texts from books, and visible evidence from books, museum artefacts..etc.

In reply to your guestion:-
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lacking of modern tool marks isn't mean authenticity.
there are many aspects concerned.

-What is another aspects????? All aspects you gave below is complely insane.
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lustre, how evenly it be?
the face is so glossy ,maybe too much, while the back is so dull. why?

-Archaic pieces from Spring & autumn, and warring states are mostly high polished, some part of the back is dull because it was attached to bronze.

I used pig hair brush to polish and shine it to the original lustre it would be.
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state of arts ,a spirit within.
unappealable face...
the way the eyes look ,unsymmetrical shape of nose ,and her smile.

-It's not smiling expression, it's scary the demons away, he is going to eat you alive, how come you think he is smiling. You think the demons in front of the temple are "smiling"? OMG!

*The shape of nose, pls compare to Shang/Zhou/warring states demon face!*

----------------------------------

function.
design to be a jade pendant by its wearing hole with unnecessary part of back head that should has been cut-off to be flat.
imaginative carving...

-Where is this kind of dumb theory you pick up from? You should go to museum to see real pieces and libraries, read more books like J Rawson book, Chinese Jade from The Neolithic to the Qing, and Jade, A STUDY IN CHINESE ARCHEOLOGY AND RELIGION by Berthold Laufer.

"jade in dimension of size of tongue and small size that fit oral cavity were used as pendant wearing by warriors, warrior will put in his mouth while in battle and/or death, because the battle was so brutal....."

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soulless piece came from warring state period ???

-You mean souless? how??? this piece full of live!! It may be difficult for you , but pls try.

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I do not know who you are, since you post a little basic opinion here, have not see any "interectual" from you, which will worth my time to discuss.

What is your profile? any of your collection show me? Are you Thai? Books of Chinese Art in Thailand are rare, and limited, you should oder books from Amazon.com

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Anita:

Please allow me to be the devil's advocate regarding the piece you had posted here and please believe I am doing so without any disrespect to you or your jade carving. It is very possible that the piece you posted here is indeed an authentic "Warring States" jade carving as you had attributed. However, with only the comparison with the picture of carving lines found on a museum piece with the picture of those found on your piece, and without the opportunity for us to examine the piece as you did, therefore depending only on low resolution pictures posted here, without any other references or evidence posted by you, it would be equally difficult for us to accept that it would be indeed an authentic "Warring States" piece just because you said so.

I found it very interesting that the jade material of your jade piece posted in the six smaller pictures looks so different than the one posted on the closed up picture. I believe the material shown on the closed up picture looks much better than those shown on the smaller pictures. Therefore it is possible we would not be able to fairly evaluate your jade piece with these posted pictures alone.

I believe when you have started posting your pieces in your own web site and allow limited access (to members only)to the public and your having attributed your jade carvings posted as authentic to the dynasties they were described, then I believe they would receive the same type of scrutiny no different that any other jades that were posted in public web sites for the public to review will receive.

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe you had equally challenged some of the jade carvings posted by Diasai in his web site not too long ago and some of your opinions toward his jade pieces are not very flattering although I do not believe you are strong in the attribution of neolithic jade carvings and your expertise was mostly in "dynasty" jade carvings only.

Therefore, it is very possible you are frustrated in being challenged by somebody whom you may consider a jade novice and therefore knows nothing of jades in your opinions. I surely understand how frustrating that may be because I had been in the receiving ends of both sides - I had equally driven some advanced jade experts crazy as I had been driven to insanity by other jade novices. However, I believe if your ultimate goal is to establish yourself as a jade expert or to share your love of jade with others then I advise you that you must exercise patience in teaching and explaining to others what you know. In doing so, you would be able to share your knowledge with them and as a result gaining their respects. I know you enjoy very much to have your own web site and I truly understand how hard you had been working on your site and admire your true passion toward jades. However I would like to caution you, as a jade pal, do not let such "pride" (in having your own site) to turn yourself into a tyrant who would decide what can or cannot be posted in your site. For example,
Randy was trying to use a thread at Chicochai as reference, but you disallowed him from doing so. If you continue in preventing anything you do not approve from being posted in your site, then I am afraid the web site would truly become "Anita's private site" only and will not be a site for all jade pals. Well, since it is indeed your own private site, you do have the right to decide what you would do with it. But I have seen the death of many jade groups, sites, forums for lesser reasons.

Therefore, no matter how great you may believe you are with jades, I do not believe others would want to listen to your opinions unless your are patient and humble enough to show them mutual respect and are willing to share your knowledge with them.

It is my opinion that while you may have good reasons to be upset with senztone, you were too harsh to him to the point of being rude to him.

Amazingly, a jade pal who "took one for the team" and got suspended from the other forum actually advised me recently (just after he was suspended) to be "civil" to the other members who still remained there and tried not to be a "jade know-it-all" so that genuine and cordial jade discussion can be carried out. I thought about what he said and I happened to reread some of my earlier messages posted in this and the other forum and I agree his advice was indeed appropriate and well-intentioned. Once I was equally and seemingly arrogant although I did not and still do not know anything about jades. Now I learn that I must be always objective to any jade carvings and opinions of other jade pals no matter how much I believe I may know and try not to let my pride overshadow my actual knowledge.

Therefore, I hope you may consider changing the way you are handling criticisms of other forum members, please do not take them personally, because they are not attacking you as a person but only questioning your jade carvings. You should see it as a great opportunity for you to share your knowledge with them. After all, you are very good in using references in attributing others' jade pieces. I wish you great success with your current web site and only offer you this advice because I still consider you as a jade pal. By the way, I am not very sure it is such a good idea for one to designate other members in your forum as "friend" or "foe". I believe such action can only divide your forum.

Thank you.

Bill

Dear Bill

Pls notice that I do not use my pieces as sample of authenticity in my forum, as another forgery and fraud forum, which are trying to lure people to buy their collection from skylark's factory.

I do not pretend to ban "J" to please a flock of donkeys and then quickly re-registered as "T" with proxy server ip.

I only used reference from museums and books that certified by archaeology of CCRB, not from fraud Chinese private collectors' books. I do not make things up for driving sales like another jade forum...Everything I said have research, and reference.

The only person in those junk yard that I am now admiring the most is John C,..soon after he have read one of 15 volums of jade unearthed in China, he seems to be shine as a glorious star...you should buy those books..they teach you a lot...I sell only USD 1100 a set delivery included...want some?

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Pls do not include yourself in "We", because you are definately "alone"........things happend behind your back you may not know of.

Do you see eBay Malaysia that I sent the link to you? those Hongshan Kit Kat look definately the same like of those "Neolithic jade expert who still do not know that excavated hongshan hoofs have holes" have.....pls don't say his name here, it's a "bad luck".
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It is unfair to me for that thing who collect scientific "bean" with Chinese farmer engraved on it selling as "nature wonder"..to say anything about jade authentication.

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S. the phpbb3 forum templates I am using is a fast and free, I do not know how to disable friends and foe function...But I am not using it, sorry, for that.

Anita:

You are very confused, now that you have your own jade forum.

Are you saying your jade collection listed on your web site are authentic jade items as you describe them, or are you saying they are just "better copies" and for that matter not much different than those sold by T? You simply cannot have it both ways. Either they are authentic or they are not.

You said "Everything I said have research, and reference." Would you please show us what the researches and references you are employing in the attribution of your authentic jade pieces including those which were being shown in this thread and others in your forum?

Wow, just buying the set of Gu Fang's jade books would instantly make one become a "jade expert"? What kind of academic evidence did Gu Fang listed on his book to show that every single piece in his book is authentic? Did you have a chance of examining those pieces in person yourself? Does it mean you would trust the authority of Gu Fang and therefore any jade pieces that were authenticated by him would be truly authentic? If that is the case, have you sent any of your piece to him to authenticate? Would you post his Certificate of Authentication for your jade items here for us to see? So now you want to be a dealer, selling me the set of the books for $ 1100. I think I will pass. If I really want them I would get them from Paragon for $ 1350, at least I can trust them and get them faster. Have you got any books written by S. Howard Hansford and for that matter, by Stanley Charles Nott? Do you have any ideas who they are? Can you trust them? since you seem to have the same problem as the Xpert who could not trust any books written by private Chinese jade collector.

I went to the Malaysia web site you told me and I would have to say 99.99% of the Hongshan stuff were junks, nothing close to what Diasai had posted in his web site. The other 0.01% need to be examined closely before I can make a decision. If you cannot tell that they are junks, I am afraid you do have a lot to learn about Hongshan jade. Why do you not post a piece of those Hongshan jades on which you had paid a fortune here and let us admire it?

I am sorry to say that, Anita, you have become arrogant that you start to believe you can do no wrong in your jade expertise. Interestingly, that is almost the same attitude of the Xpert in the other forum, one whom you despised so much. She had become a jade expert after only a few years in dealing and collecting jades.

B

Since I have not yet joined Anita's forum and therefore I did not have the privilege of seeing the same piece she discussed with senztone in her web site. After reread some of the messages she posted here, it is possible she might have labeled as piece as that of Ming dynasty instead of Warring States. She can clarify it here.

However, the main point is I do believe she needs to tone town her voice in her replies - to teach but not to humiliate. Thanks.

B

Dear senztone

About Tamo, the stone type is popular in the Ming Dynasty, Tamo's robe, long eye browns, cute pussy cat fudog + humorous gesture...depict Ming taste.

I have no time to take closer picture yet, and I can not remember where I keep him, I think I have to search in the kitchen. Got a little memory loss, actually.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear senztone

Good question, those two are not problemetic about their authenticity.

Talking about signs of age which people think that it is only the prove of "how jade is suppose to be old", the stones are white nephrite, the warring states piece turned to light greenish-blue, and altered white parts because of the aloid minerals from bronze, which the jade was attached to, it still have bronze stain on the top of the head. And the Tamo has iron ore deposits from the earth...they both are burial jade, went down there with the deaths.

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As for the style and craftsmanship.

About Tamo, you may see similarity from book The Literati Mode, Chinese Scholar Paintings, Calligraphy and Desk Object by Sydney L. Moss Ltd. 1986, P.256-257, Collection of Malcolm Barnett, Hong Kong. (I do not have scanner with me, I'll do it soon).

*Ming dynasty jade figures mostly show sense of humor. And animal figures having circular ring (donut-like) ears, are of the Ming period*

You may visit the link of The Freer Gallery, Song Dynasty Tamo with Fudog.

About Warring states Toa Tieh, the style is later period of Longshan Culture, Jinan, Shandong Province.

"Warring States (500-221 BC), State of Qi, its capital was Linzi, which is part of the present city of Zibo in Shandong Province. States of Qi was the descendant of Longshan Culture(3000-1900 BC). This white nephrite pendant is similar to Taotie mask with flare ears found on jade scepter of Longshan Culture. It is possible that the tomb's occupant was an antique collector and/or immitated an ancient style of Taotie to honour his ancestor. Translucent greeny white nephrite with bronze and iron stains, holes for suspension are on the left and right top of the sharp point of head gear of Taotie."

You may visit British museum, the style and tool marks shown similarity.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/asia/j/jade_face.aspx

The above are my personal opinion.

Have fun
Anita

Jade attached to bronze:

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Dragger-axe with bronze inside and jade outside

Height: 17.5cm, width: 3.7cm, Shang Dynasty (1600-1046 B.C.)

Excavated from the Yin Ruins, Anyang City, Henan province

Collection of the Henan Provincial Institute of Cultural Relics and Archaeology

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See the similarity..

Have fun
Anita





URL Title :http://expoers.com/list2.htm

For more understanding, he is possibly not Tao tieh, he is an ancient Longshan god..Tao Tieh in Shang Dynasty to later period will have no lower jaw.

He's a local god..with no name..so, Tao Tieh is a general referable and understandable name.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear senztone

Quoted from you:-

"state of arts ,a spirit within.
unappealable face... the way the eyes look ,unsymmetrical shape of nose ,and her smile. "

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FYI, these ancient gods do not "smile", ancient people use symbolic expression, not realistic.....smiling ancient gods as you think, they are not smiling, they are scaring you, actually....if you do not see it, nobody can.

as for the nose, it doesn't matter, jade work is difficult, it flips and slips all the time while using ancient foot paddling tool and/or hand chisel. And it is up to the artesans to correct the error to fit the main concept.

Why don't you just simply nod your head for "yes", and shake your head for "no", it wastes my time to perform a concerto to a cow.

See below picture to broaden your vision.

Have fun and Merry Christmas.
Anita Mui

Dear Bill

About the stone type, Hetian/Hotan/Xinjiang jade have "never" been used in China before very late warring states to early Western Han. The Hotan jade that you like to talk and referred to yours and your Neo expert chit chat jade pal as authentic Neolithic jades have never been used in "reality".

Nephrite used in China prior to the opening of Silk Road was not from Xinjiang Hetian, it was from locality that are not available anymore. You may notice (pls try) that museum archaic materials are not like the raw nephrite found in Xinjiang..in whatsoever conditions.....why?..burial environment?...what's about jade that kept in uncollapse tomb chambers, in the lacquer boxes, bronze jars, flooded? dry place???

Do I have to refer the story of legendary Bian He's jade to you? Bian He was in the States of Chu, found a jade stone on the mountain of Chu..so where is Chu States in The Spring and Autumn Period?...Central China!

See material from museum attached.


Have fun and Merry Christmas
Anita

If the tool marks picture is "blurr", you may copy and paste the link below.

http://www.npm.gov.tw/masterpiece/enlargement.jsp?pic=K1C004112



URL Title :Spring&autumn - Warring States jade

Dear Anita:

I know you did try very hard to study Chinese jade carving including their material, unfortunately all the reference and literature regarding Chinese jade carvings including jade material to which you have access are English and not that of Chinese. Equally sad is that there were really not that many researches done on the origin of jade material found in ancient China or those that were used on archaic jade carvings and if they are available they were mostly written in Chinese. Therefore, I can truly understand why you would have obtained such misinformation regarding Hetian jade:

"Hetian/Hotan/Xinjiang jade have "never" been used in China before very late warring states to early Western Han."

This is truly a very amazing statement because if you could have referred to the following article:

"A Short Discussion of Hetian Jade Carvings excavated from Archaeological Sites"

http://www.chinajades.cn/asp_club/read_zj_paper.asp?id=181&zj_name=

you would have easily learned that the author of the article had used Hetian jade carvings that were excavated from 7 different ancient tombs in China including that of Lady Fu Hou (which scholars had later concluded that the origin of the material used in "carving" these Hetian jade carvings found inside her tomb were originated from Hetian (Hotan, Khotan) XinJiang (Sinkiang))
后有学者将上述数据与6组和田玉（白玉和青玉各3组）化学分析结果进行比较研究，认为殷墟“妇好”墓中玉器原料应来自新疆和田。

in drawing the following conclusion at the end of his article:

"综上所述，考古出土玉器中，经鉴定所见和田玉最早是在商代晚期，即公元前13世纪左右。当然，这并不代表和田玉输入内地的最早时间，因为黄河流域出土的史前玉器基本上没有被检测，有待于将来进一步研究。"

"According to the above descriptions of the jade items that were found in these ancient tombs, after analysis we can conclude that the early appearance of Hetian jades is late Shang dynasty, or around 13 century B.C. Of course, that does not necessarily mean that this would be the earliest time of the Hetian jades were being imported into inner China (from XinJiang) because many neolithic (pre-historic)jade carvings that were excavated around the vicinity of Yellow River (Huanghe) were never being analyzed and would have to await future researches to determine their origins."

A short version of English translation for Hetian jade carving found in these seven ancient Chinese tombs can be found here:

http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.php?forum=1&id=29339#29379

Now before you would start to argue that one can never trust any of these Chinese jade articles written by all these Chinese jade collectors and start calling the findings of this article as fraudulent, I would advise you to please click on the above link of the article and if you care to look at the picture of the author posted there and the Chinese name 古方 posted under his picture, you can easily tell that the author of this article can be no other than Mr. Gu Fang whom you seem to respect a lot.

Also, do you really believe the large piece of jade boulder found in the Chu's state was nephrite? May be you should do more researches.

I have been spending a lot of time in studying "jade" material that were used in making jade carvings during different time periods of China and it was indeed true many archaic jades were made of local jades but they did not rule out the fact that some of them were made of Hetian jade. I had also spent a lot of time in studying material used in make Hongshan culture jade carvings and while high quality nephrite jade similar in quality to Hetian jade were indeed found in making authentic Hongshan jade item, I had never said they were made of Hetian jades that were imported from XinJiang. However, like I had said repeatedly in many of my messages, the study of jade material will never be sufficient in the attributing of any archaic jade carvings, one has to study different carving techniques found on them. That is the most difficult part and without the opportunity for any of us to study archaic jades in person (that will include you) and without the assistance of a truly great jade teacher, all that jade knowledge coming from either of you or me, can only be received by others with a grain of salt.

Therefore, while you believe you are such a jade expert in everything to do with jades, I hate to point out to you that due to the lack of access to many of the Chinese jade literature and depending solely on English jade literature alone, very often you are simply in a BIG disadvantage and some of the information concerning jade you have learned can be inaccurate or misleading. May be these would be something you would consider before you would make any such statement again. I learn that in life nothing is written in concrete.

I truly wish you would be willing to learn as much about jade as you can, just like the Chinese saying says:

"There is no end in the sea of learning,
only with diligence can one reach land."

If I sound too harsh to you, I would like to apologize to you.

A Merry Christmas to you and other jade pals!

Bill

There is more evidence about the usage of Hetian jade (or Xinjiang Kunlun jade) was as early as the Zhou dynasty according to an article written by the renown jade expert in China, Mr. Zhou Nam Quan 周南泉. Any serious jade collectors in China will be able to tell you who Mr. Zhou is. He has studied and examined over 100,000 jade carvings including those owned by the National Palace Museum in Beijing and other museums in China plus many others from cultural stores and private collections. He had published numerous jade literature (in Chinese).

For more information about him, please refer to these two links:

http://news.socang.com/person/detail.asp?id=52527

http://www.yuqi.biz/jadecelebrity/mordencelebrity/641.html

or you can use his Chinese name 周南泉 to search in Google and you would find tons of links about him including jade articles written by him. Any forum members who are serious about jade and who can read Chinese should not miss the opporunity in reading his articles including those that are discussing ways to attribute jade carvings from different dynasties.

The following is one of these articles written by Mr. Zhou, titled: "The Attribution of Archaic Jade Series (2): The Attribution of Xia and Shang Dynasty jade carvings."

http://www.esgweb.net/Article/Class58/Class124/Class133/200709/24311.htm

This is an excerpt from the article:

夏商玉器的材质

夏商玉器的选料，除包括新石器诸文化已见的主要玉料如蛇纹石等外，经科学验测证实已大量用新疆一带产的昆仑玉（透闪石）及少量用河南南阳地区的“ 独山玉”。如1976年发掘的殷墟“妇好”墓出土的玉器中，就有大量新疆昆仑山产玉料。关于古代先秦西周使用昆仑山产玉料的情况，不仅有大量的出土实物为证，而且史书记载的周穆王在昆仑山瑶池会见西王母的神话传说，也称其在该地看到玉山，可以佐证

(Translation)

The Material of Shang and Zhou Dynasty jade carvings

“The material selected for the making of Shang and Zhou jade carvings, beside such major material as serpentine which had been found in Neolithic cultures and with the assistance of scientific analysis, large quantity of them were found to be made of Kunlun jade (tremolite) that was found around XinJiang with a few made of Nanyan jade (Dushan jade) that was found in Nanyan, Henan. For example, there were large quantity of Hetian (XinJiang Mt. Kulun jade) jade carvings found in the Lady Fu Hao’s tomb which was excavated in 1976. There were large quantity of excavated ancient Qin to Western Han dynasty jade carvings that were also found made of this type of Kunlun jade. Also, according to the fairy tale recorded in the ancient Chinese Text, Shi Shu 史书, the Zhou emperor Zhou Mu Wang 周穆王 had met with Xi Wang Mu 西王母 in her residence Ya Chi 瑶池 in Mt. Kulun 昆仑山. The Zhou emperor said he saw the jade mountain there. This helps in confirming the existence of Kulun jade as early as the Zhou dynasty.”

Therefore, not only Mr. Gu Fang but also other renown Chinese jade experts such as Mr. Zhou Nam Quan has agreed that Hetain jade was used in making jade carvings as early as the Zhou dynasty.

I believe if I look further into this this topic I would be able to find more and more literature in supporting Hetian jade had been used as earlier as Shang dynasty and not as what Anita said,

"Nephrite used in China prior to the opening of Silk Road was not from Xinjiang Hetian, it was from locality that are not available anymore."

May be this will help her in furthering her study of jade, particularly if the jade carvings she studies are those from China.

Bill

In the book, "Chinese Jade Carving", written by the world renown jade scholar, Mr. S. Howard Hansford (Published by Lund Humphries & Co. Ltd, London and Bradford, 1950)had expressed his opinion regarding the earliest emergence of Hetian jade (Khotan jade) in China at the end of Chapter III - Sources of Supply of the Jade Stone, p. 56 as follow:

"In the light of all these considerations I feel that the weight of evidence is now in favour of Khotan being regarded as the source of the material of the most ancient Chinese jade carvings. There is a passage in the Book of History (Yu kung, Tribute of Yu), in which certain gem stones, believed to include jade, are mentioned as articles of tribute from Yung Chou. This is given as the name of a province of the kingdom of the Great Yu, founder of the legendary Hsia Dynasty, and is suppposed to have corresponded to modern Shensi and parts of Kan-su. The passage has been adduced as testimony that these provinces were actually sources of production of jade. I believe they acquired this reputation just as Yun-nan did in recent times, and that they were merely the channel through which Khotan jade entered China in the course of a trade carried on from immemorial ages along the fringe of the Taklamakan Desert and through the Kan-su corridor."

The key sentence in his conclusion here is:

"in favour of Khotan being regarded as the source of the material of the most ancient Chinese jade carvings."

Mr. Hansford made this conclusion after studying and examining all the evidence and literature regarding the usage of Khotan jades in ancient Chinese dynasties and it was made 26 years before the Lady Fu Hao's tomb was being excavated in 1976. Sadly, he passed away in 1973, otherwise he would be really excited to find that evidence of Hetian jade carvings from Zhou dynasty would confirm the conclusion regarding Hetian jade made by him in 1950.

It is interesting that when I started my study in the jade material, to my astonishment I found that there were no official records or concrete evidence of jade (nephrite or jadeite) were ever found or mined in China. Of course, there were many rumors that nephrite had indeed been found in some parts of ancient China, unfortunately they were rumors only and so far such rumors could not be proven with any certainty. Therefore the only known nephrite source available to China for making jade carvings since ancient time is Khotan, XinJiang or its vicinity and most of the jade material used in the making of archaic jades including those of the Zhou Dynasty were indeed Hetian jade that were imported from Khotan, XinJiang. I sincerely hope this will clarify any misunderstanding regarding the earliest appearance of Hetian jade in China.

Bill

On the book, "Jade" edited by Roger Keverne (published in 1995 by Lorenz Books ISBN 1859671918), p. 95 where the jade carvings from Lady Fu Hao Tomb #5 were discussed:

"The small jades found in the Fu Hao burial were both in the coffin itself and in the centre of the burial chamber among the lacquer remains of the coffin - destroyed by waterlogging over the centuries.

In the opinion of Yang Boda, a distinguished co-author of this book, findings of the Palace in Beijing support the view that this period (Shang - Yin (Xiaotung) Period) saw the first use in China of the nephrite of Khotan (Hetian). This certainly emphasizes the considerate geographical influence of the Shang state or the importance of regional trade - or both."

(*Correction - in my last message regarding Mr. Zhou Nam Quan's opinion regarding Hetian jade's first appearance in China, I had mistakenly stated that "Mr. Zhou Nam Quan has agreed that Hetain jade was used in making jade carvings as early as the Zhou dynasty." It should be "as early as the Shang dynasty" instead. I apologize for my error.)

Well, I hope most serious collectors of Chinese jade carvings will know or get to know who Mr. Yang Boda 杨伯达 is. If he is not the most respected jade scholar/expert in China, then he would be in the top three.

I recommended one of the following jade books written by him: (even though they were written in Chinese, but these three volumes had tons of picture of jades range from Neolithic all the way to the Qing dynasty in the first 2 volumes and serious jade essay in the last vol., real worth their prices).

中国玉器全集 (3 Volumes)
Zhongguo Yuqi Quanji (3 Volumes)
Jade Treasures from China (3 Volumes)
杨伯达
Yang, Boda
6.25 x 8.5", 948 pp., fully illustrated in color, text in Chinese, paper, Hebei, 2005.
# Volume 1: Neolithic, Winter-Autumn, Warring States
# Volume 2: Qin Dynasty, Han Dynasty, Ming Dynasty, Qing Dynasty
# Volume 3: Eassys

http://www.paragonbook.com/html/browsesubj/fullcitation.cfm?item=30912&CFID=17181103&CFTOKEN=69758179

Bill

P.S.

More info about Roger Keverne

http://www.keverne.co.uk/NewPages/intro.html

Dear Bill

Below is a sample of the post that I have never ever taken part, because I do not want to ruin your fantasy.

James bought lots of this slit rings, and "you" confirmed that they are very very authentic!!!!..he went back to that shop again to buy more..you kown what??..that shop have 2-3 baskets full of these slit rings.....then James had to re-think "what the .... is going on?"..why so many.....?

Months later he knew me, then we go to shop together, I showed him around and guided him what I know about "authentic" jades,....then he will never buy those junks again.....

Yours and those Inner Mongolia Ninja's expertise worths a "candy".

I think you hold your pride a little bit and listen to what Pipane said in that post below.

Have fun
Anita Mui



URL Title :Slit rings Nick Nack

So now after attacking another Xpert in another forum, you do not like to be questioned of your "jade expertise" because you can do no wrong in your jade expertise?

That is truly regretful because the tactics you used: in attacking anybody who does not agree with you and try to humiliate them so that they would shut up and would not dare to question your "authentic jade collection" again. Sounds familiar, that was exactly what the other jade expert/dealer did in the other forum. She and her supporters drove off anybody who dare to question her marvelous "authentic archaic jade collection" in that forum.

What would be your next step, Anita, after you had posted all these "authentic jades", attributions of which were supposedly supported by your researches. Are you starting to sell them as "authentic jades" then? If that is the case, what would be the difference between you and the expert?

To use pictures of such poor quality to compare with the jade ring given to me by Mike is simply ridiculous. Things can look alike with such pictures. Have you even bothered to purchase those tourist pieces and find out even if they were made of nephrite? I could almost tell you that they would be made of poor quality serpentine. Mike had purchased a group of these jade rings, all were made of high quality nephrite jade and all were manually made. Do you really believe somebody would go through so much troubles in making such jade rings manually with high quality nephrite jade and then sold of them for HK#10 each. If you truly believe that, I am sorry to say you are more naive than me. If these rings were made of genuine nephrite, I would like to you to purchase every single piece of them for me and ask Mike to send them to me so I may study them since you did not even bother to examine them yourself.

B

Anita,
The links don’t work so I may miss part of the discussion.
Anyway I just want to add my two cents. The carving of tamo is generally in Ming style. So it is possible Ming. The carving of the head is not in Neolithic or warring states styles or craftsmanship. It is pretty clear comparing to the Freer’s and British museum’s pieces.

Look forward to see more of your collection on this forum. Happy holiday!

Dear KK

China is a vast empire, as today and as in 2500 yrs ago. Population count in Western Han is 50 millions...that's after the wars, and only "Han" Chinese...so, how many population count in the warring states, how many minorities, other kingdoms that are not Han Chinese, and how many aristrocrats before that? How many local gods, dieties had been forgotten after the coming Mahayana Buddhism?

That jade maintains the hallmark of warring states + local belief + function of the period. It comes with warring states bronze artefacts, but I collect only Chinese jade.

Click the link below.

Dear Bill

Pls study only sources came out of China Cultural Relics Bureau, and its curators...other sources from China private collectors will turn you blind...

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S. many of my posts in this topic were banned for your own good, Bill. I went too far sometimes...thanks Anthony.

URL Title :JADE TALK forun

Dear beloved members

I just made a JADE TRADE JADE forum, members can trade your unwanted jade to another jade, antiques, work of art, and/or any things but "money" among members.

Have fun
Anita

Dear Bill

Kotan/Hetian/Hotan jade have never been used in China in Neolithic, Xia, Shang, Zhou, Spring&Autumn, middle warring states China.

Pls do not depend upon what eBay sellers said on thier websites.

------------------------------------
Jade, or Yu, is usually classified in three groups which consist (

a)of nephrites from Eastern Turkestan and Yarkand ;

b) of dark green jades, Pi yu, found near Lake Baikal and west of Yunnan ;

and (c) the emerald green jade, Fei tsui, from Burma.

Under the heading "jade" two substances differing chemically are included, jadeite, composed of silicates of sodium and aluminium, and nephrite, composed of silicates of calcium
and magnesium. Jadeite is a French word, generally used for distinguishing a jade of granular texture, differing from nephrite in its brilliant colour, greater hardness, and higher specific gravity. The green of jadeite is apple and emerald green ; the green of nephrite grey-green or celadon green.

Nearly all the jades of historic and ritual significance are nephrites, for the discovery of the Burmese mines of jadeites did not take
place until the more important epochs of Chinese creative art had closed.

Jadeite will be mentioned again at the end of this chapter. In addition to the three categories of jade mentioned above there is a
fourth category:-

d)consisting of the indigenous nephrites of old China. In the Shu King we are told that early jade excavations were made in Kiang-Si, in the former Province of Liang, part of the present Shen-si and Sz-Tchouan, as well as in the province of Yung, part of the present Shan-si and Kan-su. This last jade mine is also mentioned in the Chou Li, The two most important centres for acquiring jade were Lan-t'ien
and Feng Siang, both near the Imperial Capital. It is from these two places that most of the early symbolic jades must have emanated, for,
roughly speaking, the finds of jade were at that time confined to the Shen-si and Shan-si districts and the environs of the town of Si-ngan-fu, at one time capital of the Chou Empire. These localities formed the cradle of Chinese
civilisation in the third millennium B.C.

The colour and quality of early jade is entirely different from those of the later jades of Chinese Turkestan. The indigenous material quarried in Shang, Chou, and Han days was brown or black, yellow, white, cream, or grey-green.

---------------------------------

Quoted from Introduction Page 3
EARLY CHINESE JADES
BY UNA POPE-HENNESSY

Have fun
Anita Mui

It is difficult to state at all accurately when the supply of indigenous jade gave out in China, but probably in late Chou days travellers from
the West may have brought jade stones (yu shih) to China.

Remusat,quoting a Chinese author of 200 B.C., alludes to a piece of jade coming from the Ch'ung mountain. He says they baked it three times in a furnace for twenty-four hours and it did not suffer in colour or sheen, which seems to show that Khotan was supplying jade to China in the 3rd century B.C. In any case, Khotan was open to Chinese trade in the reign of the Emperor Wu Ti (140-87 B.C.), for it is recorded in the Annals of the Former Hans that the first embassy from Yu t'ien was received by this ruler who conferred tokens of investiture upon the King of Khotan.

It was not, however, until the days of the Later Hans, in the 1st century a.d., that Yu t'ien became of such great importance to the Chinese that they sent an army to conquer it and establish a Chinese garrison in the State (73 A.D.). In 127 A.D., according to the Annals, Khotan renewed its allegiance, and two years later a tribute-bearing embassy travelled to
the Imperial Court. Embassies from Khotan are mentioned in 202 and 220 a.d. to the Later Hans, and again during the period of the Three
Kingdoms (220-264 a.d.), and the Tsin dynasties (265-419 a.d.). A pilgrim, Fa Hsien, reaching Khotan about 400 a.d., describes the flourishing
condition of Buddhism, the myriad monks, the spring processions of sacred images, and the houses of the people throughout the country
standing apart like (separate) stars.

In Tang annals we read of the jadebearing
river of Khotan, and are told that the people used to discover the precious stone in it by observing the spots where the reflection of the
moonlight was strongest.

In the T'ao Shuo we read something of Khotan, the so-called Kingdom of Jade. " Yarkand is a large walled city of the Mohammedan country.
In its territory there is a river in which are found jade stones, the largest the size of big round dishes ... the smallest the size of a fist or chestnut.. . . Snow-white, kingfisher-green, beeswax-yellow, vermilion-red, and ink-black are all considered valuable, but the most difficult to get are those of mutton fat with red spots and others bright green as spinach with gold
stars shining through."


Quoted from Introduction Page 5
EARLY CHINESE JADES
BY UNA POPE-HENNESSY

Have fun
Anita Mui

To quote from Una Constance Pope-Hennessy DBE (1876–17 August 1949), née Una Constance Birch, who was a British writer, mainly on history and biography was quite interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Una_Pope-Hennessy

Her book "Early Chinese Jades" (1923) was about Chinese jade figurines, which she collected and since she was neither a jade expert and many of the Shang tombs were not found at the time she wrote her book, many of her facts about the source of jade in China could be misleading.

http://www.archive.org/stream/earlychinesejade00popeuoft/earlychinesejade00popeuoft_djvu.txt

To ignore the opinions of Gu Fang 古方 (whose books you seemed to mention very often), Zhou Nam Quan 周南泉 and Yang, Boda 杨伯达 who are probably among the top ten jade experts in China and equally ignore the opinion of one of the top jade experts in the West,, Professor S. Howard Hansford to me is quite disturbing. Please note that the three Chinese jade experts made their conclusions that Hetian jade had been used as early as the Shang dynasty only after studies were performed on the jade carvings found in Lady Fu Hao's tomb. Most western jade book writers did not have such luxury.

Therefore, I would let the readers decide how strong your case is and how accurate your statement may sound:

"Kotan/Hetian/Hotan jade have never been used in China in Neolithic, Xia, Shang, Zhou, Spring&Autumn, middle warring states China.

Pls do not depend upon what eBay sellers said on thier websites. "

I guess you are now calling those four jade experts from whom I had quoted in my previous messages as that of eBay sellers? Interesting. I guess you might have skipped every single quote I had posted here.

I find your conclusion very entertaining. Thank you for your input and in sharing your jade expertise with us.

I still believe you should purchase the books written by Professor S. Howard Hansford and study them before you would post any more messages regarding Chinese jades. May be you should read through Gu Fang's 15 volumes of jade books too. It is possible that you may have already made up your mind about the sources of "Chinese Jades" and nothing will ever change your mind. If that is the case, I wish you will have all the fun in your jade web site since you will be the ultimate jade authority there and can draw any conclusions regarding Chinese jades as you well pleased. Cheers.


Bill

Dear Bill

Find me a document prove, a raman result done on pre-Han excavated jades in China museums (not Taiwan), and confirm "Hotan" material.

That's all I need.

Thanks
Anita Mui

Hello there,

Following our interesting discussion on your new forum (congratulation Anita, at least an English forum dedicated to jade)...

I'd like to bring in my analysis of some jades posted here.

The first item (the head) is new. Jade type is consistent with new production available on flee markets...jade structure is poor as translucence and hardness...this only, would forbid this piece from being old or good...compare jade quality with the other pictures from museums...

I don't think we need to talk about carving style...pictures are already there to illustrate my thought.

Third point (again, one is enough to disqualify one jade from being antique) surface aspect and patina...is not quite right...Anita, the light reflect (crude/straight) that I can see just on the forehead of the head (First picture) is an clear evidence of a new piece.

You have to "visualize" light course when it touch the surface....

newly polished stone shows "straight" (at 90°) and regular (too photon traveling very close from each other will "rebond" on jade surface making and regular angle...as a result light reflect is "white", "cold", "regular".

Even when aspect looks fantastic antique carving shows micro irregularities (use a loop)...that affect greatly light reflect...imagine a old wooden furniture surface aspect...that is the idea...color/light is "warm", "smooth", our photons course is now very different as a result light reflect is more diffuse...

Another detail I think about...in tool mark analysis you are mistaken, let me explain...looking at tool marks is ok, but tool marks are easily reproduced with modern tools.

When analysing tool marks you must go further... check patina changes in carved lines...you need to check also the "movement" of the carver...I mean has one line been carved left from right, inside from outside, the technique to carve curves...this is actually how you authenticate en date archaic/antique jade.

Regards,

Pipane

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