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Subject:My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Wed, Sep 12, 2007 IP: 68.155.251.53 The scientific and analytical evaluation of authenticating a jade from antiquity requires a great deal of expertise and years of handling experience. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Wed, Sep 12, 2007 Mr Shumaker, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Doug and Moyra Thu, Sep 13, 2007 Ed, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: larry Thu, Sep 13, 2007 Yes, you have a good point, even the experts can sometime find it hard to differentiate between a 1900 reproduction and a period piece especially in the art of jade, bronze and lacquer. There is not much literature to tell you how to tell the difference and different auctioneers have different ideas. So sometimes even a good provenance can be a problem. Also there is so many modern forgery that are very good. However if one is a eager collector i suggest looking in auction houses during major asian art auctions just to view the pieces. Buying on e bay is just too dangerous. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Daryl Tan Fri, Sep 14, 2007 Very good observation,Ed.There is an ongoing exhibition Jade exhibition in Beijing. Nearly 400 pieces of precious jade articles with a long history of 100 years to 5, 000 years are on display at Beijing Botanic Garden |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Fri, Sep 14, 2007 Larry, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Fri, Sep 14, 2007 I can not teach a blind man to see. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Fri, Sep 14, 2007 Diasai, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: larry Fri, Sep 14, 2007 On the subject of bronze reproduction in the 1900s. There was a demand for chinese antiques in the west in the late 1800s early 1900s and as a result there was a lot of reproductions made in those period to supply the demand in the west.Some of these after a hundred years look almost like the real thing. The harder pieces to sort out is the latter bronzes, pieces from the song, ming and yuan dynasty, which were produced in the thousands in the 1900s and because they have good patina as well after a hundred years can be hard to tell from the real ones.I have no trouble telling the differences between a modern repro and a old bronze vessel but it is much harder to tell between a 1900's repro and a period piece. As a chinese art collector living in the west one should try to collect the period pieces that were brought over by art dealers, traders, diplomats and soldiers in the late 1800s and early 1900s not the repros. To explain my point on early 1900s bronze repros please look at the los angeles county museum collection of metal ware. There are a few 1900's repros. Website lacma.org/ |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Sun, Sep 16, 2007 Well Gman and Edward, I am not of the same mind as you. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Mon, Sep 17, 2007 Diasai, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Tue, Sep 18, 2007 To the the Honourable Mr. Ed: |
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Subject:A few Hongshan book suggestions
Posted By: Bill Tue, Sep 18, 2007 Available on www.paragonbooks.com |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Larry Mon, Sep 17, 2007 Dear Daisai, have you ever travelled to China and visit some of the antique markets? If you have never I suggest you do. Also ask the jade dealer at the Beijing Hotel about all the absolutely fabulous jade carving he has from every period if they are real. He is a very honest man, he will tell you why they look so real. Also there are sacks full so jade carvings with dirt on them at the open air market and the dealer will say she dug it up from her garden.She will only sell you a sack full. Can you believe her a million dollars worth of archaic jade carving dug up from her garden for a thousand yuan? But wait a minute the stall next door has a sack full of these as well.There are thousands of Hongshan jade carvings of all color and lots of different types of colorful stones, even from turquoise, argate, serpentine, jadiete, nepherite and etc. Buy a few that you think is real and than go visit a reputable antique dealer on the ground floor of Beijing Holiday Inn and ask him about your jades. He would probably shake his head and show you a few authentic pieces but the price is huge 10 plus thousand USD a piece more expensive than back home in a reputable auction house. At least he has got all the time to teach you the tricks of authenticating jade. Anyway it is all fun and a worth while experience if you have not been as there is also the wonderful Imperial Palace and the Ming graves to see. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Mon, Sep 17, 2007 Diasai, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Tue, Sep 18, 2007 Dear Gman, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Tue, Sep 18, 2007 Just collect what you like, authentic jade artefacts do not exist...but pls do not bankrupt me! that what my husband told me. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Tue, Sep 18, 2007 Hello Anita, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Tue, Sep 18, 2007 Hi, Anita: |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Wed, Sep 19, 2007 A couple of neolithic jades from a chinese book. If not published, I am shure they would have been declared ebay fakes by Edward and Gman. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Wed, Sep 19, 2007 Daisai, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Wed, Sep 19, 2007 Scans II |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Thu, Sep 20, 2007 Dear Diasai |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Thu, Oct 04, 2007 I am with Anita that anyone can publish a book. It is not impossible to collude with some provincial governmental agency's head guys in China by "donating" or "contributing" something to "sponsor" some "activities" to get one's name on the list or to get an endorsement! |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Larry Thu, Sep 20, 2007 Dear Daisai, I hope you are aware that there is alot of publications on art in China that are done by individuals that call themselves experts, are actually unrealiable and often incorrect scource of information about chinese art whether ceramics or jade, due to lack of proper research and inavailability of authentic material. Only books publish by Chinese Museums- state or provincial, The ministry of culture, the state administrative bureau of museums and archaeological data, or the chinese committee for the organisation of exhibitions of archaelogical finds can be trusted as valid scource of data regarding chinese relics. Alot of writters in lots of topics are collectors that for many reasons try to authenticate their own collection base on their own reasonings. However they could be misleading themselves and others in the process, most frequently unintentionally. When you are in China remember to buy books published by their museums on jade. There are lots of publications on jade by various government organistions, esp museums. Regards, Larry |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Thu, Sep 20, 2007 Hello Gman, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Fri, Sep 21, 2007 Dear Anita, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Fri, Sep 21, 2007 Dear Diasai |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Fri, Sep 21, 2007 P.S. Do they say that where the artifacts in the book are from? If they are from private collectors, they are not reliable. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: larry Sat, Sep 22, 2007 I would have to agree with Anita. There is a lot of made up archaeology in China, to make you believe that the pieces they attempt to sell is genuine, so beware. It is a quick way to become rich. As I said before look for the publisher make sure it is from a government department or a government museum publication.Also if you got the time and the interest travel to china and visit the museums to look at authentic items and speak to the curators. All pieces displayed will come with it's source,from where it was excavated. Beware of false excavation from private individuals. They like to tell you to follow them to a site and tell you they excavated all these things from the hole they dug. Usually they would have buried all these things in the hole and when tourist are around they attempt to sell them the replicas straight from the ground. cheers, larry |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Mon, Sep 24, 2007 Dear Anita, Dear Larry, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: larry Tue, Sep 25, 2007 Pls show us the bibliography page, I will get my wife to translate it.In my opinion all 5 pieces are serpentine that have been acid treated.You see them in curio shops in china or singapore. They look worn and pitted, calcified and stained and so real but actually they are new.Do a scratch test apply a bit of etch and it bubbles. I have bought pieces like these before when i was learning and i brought it to Hong Kong to ask an expert and guess what it was fake and made from serpentine.They can be large or small and doesn't have a lustre like jade. Rub it with oil and the frosted area disappear and wash it with soap water it comes back.Serpentine is a stone related to asbestos, they have long and sharp crystals,- you can see this sometimes under strong lighting on the frosted areas. unlike nepherite. They are found deep underground so the ancients wouldn't have much acess to it, they are more likely to find a nepherite border in the river. I took them back and with help from my lawyer friend i got my money back. boy it was a fight. If it was a few dollars one should border but if it is thousands than one should sought professional advise and help from lawyers. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Tue, Sep 25, 2007 Dear larry, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Mon, Sep 24, 2007 'Usually they would have buried all these things in the hole and when tourist are around they attempt to sell them the replicas straight from the ground.' |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Tue, Sep 25, 2007 Dear Diasai |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Wed, Sep 26, 2007 Anita, fact is that you are contesting archeological finds from the Gansu region that has published officialy. Fact is also that you declassify yourself as envious if you state that the Tingjutang collection artifacts is a collection of fakes. If you are able to find me some similar artifacts I will happily purchase them but I am 100% shure that you cannot find similar quality neolithic jade on your HK shopping tours. You should go on collecting ming jades instead of desperatly attempting to seem expert in neolithic jade, no disrespect intended. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Wed, Sep 26, 2007 Dear Diasai |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Thu, Sep 27, 2007 Dear Anita Mui, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Wed, Sep 26, 2007 Last pic. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Thu, Sep 27, 2007 Dear Anita, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: BIll Thu, Sep 27, 2007 Hi, Anita: |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Thu, Sep 27, 2007 Anita, Please: |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Larry Thu, Sep 27, 2007 One point about serpentine, marble or turquiose items is that they are soft stones and easy to carve as well as easy to fake as you can acid treat them to look pitted, holed, frosted and stained with all types of color even buried to look ancient. You can probably carve superman or monkey man in serpentine and acid treat it to look old and pitted and ancient and than burry it for a years with quick lime to create calcification, so no one can tell it was just made last year.It is much harder to carve and fake nepherite to look ancient, unlike serpentine, and the material is more expensive, that is why most cheap fakes are made from serpentine or brownite.expensive fakes are made from nepherite.Check out a curio shop in asia, they always have a range. This material is related to asbestose, check out wilkepidia, so i am not sure if you inhale the dust you will end up with asbestosis or lung cancer, may be Dr Velanu might know. cheers, larry |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Thu, Sep 27, 2007 Hi, Larry: |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Thu, Sep 27, 2007 Larry, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Fri, Sep 28, 2007 Dear Bill |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Fri, Sep 28, 2007 Hi, Anita: |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Larry Sun, Sep 30, 2007 Dear Bill, most dealers in the west get their stock from international asian art auctions like the one in sothebys next week in Hong Kong. The other way of obtaining good stock is from client collectors that want to sell some pieces in their collection that they bought from you several years ago or want to up grade. You don't get good authentic jade for a few dollars from china.Most of the authentic jade pieces found in the west came from china in the late 19th century or early 20th century when the rich and the imperial family started to sell their collection. Even tourists from china will buy authentic jade from reputable auctions and from specialist dealers. They pay anything from 5 to 100 plus thousand per piece. To buy authentic jade in china is too expensive, as most of their good material come from western auction houses and ancient jade from tomb raiders are no cheaper. To smuggle antiques out is easy as most customs will not take the effort to check the laugage. May be they know the stuff that the tourist take out are all fakes. How do you explain that most bidders in next week auction in Hong Kong will be rich mainlanders. To collect right is important because most collectors are small scale dealers as most will sell a few pieces each year to upgrade their collection. It is not much different to a stock investor. To buy a fake antique is very saddening, especially for high price, as one can never get back the money again. No reputable auction house will sell a fake. |
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Subject:Thank you for your advices
Posted By: Bill Mon, Oct 01, 2007 Hi, Larry: |
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Subject:Re: Thank you for your advices
Posted By: larry Tue, Oct 02, 2007 Dear Bill. It is good to see your enthusiasm for collecting jade.As long as one is not paying too much for the lot you purchase from e- bay, it is all fun. I think some members of the forum probably misundertood you for a dealer in jade. It is rather hard for someone to know between old and new jade without owing at least one real piece. I suggest one just buy one piece a year and buy that from a reliable auction house like christies or Sothebys.One can bid live with Christies live on the internet. The canadian dollar is now higher than the us dollar one can get a good exchange rate. Make sure one buys the piece with good provenance or with the old wood stand, to be very sure it is authentic. Eg the large jade mountain with immmortals, with the original wood stand at sothebys hongkong, with the railway pension provenance would be a good kangxi piece. Once you got to touch examine and feel the real thing than one can tell if the piece you found in a local junk shop is authentic or just modern. As for buying in China, yes it is possible to get ancient jade, but it would be very expensive as most grave diggers are well connected to the high end retailers and they will sell to only people they trust, they will never show a client they do not trust the pieces, due to various reasons, they are mainly of the han and warring state period. The starting price of those are 10 thousand up so it is not cheap. There are probably just as many millionaires now in china as in us, so the market for real antiques is very good, the best pieces will enter their local guardian auction, where they sell for big prices. These auction houses will even except foreign consignment. Any real Hongshan jade will sell for many thousands, so that is why to find a real piece from e-bay from a dealer in china just doesn't make sense, that is why almost everyone in china knows that all those carving found in the market is almost a 100% fake. May be 10 years ago before antique shows on china tv exist there may be a chance you find a real piece from the market, but these days when there is antique valuation shows on CCTV almost every day, there is no one that will sell a ancient piece for a song. They know if they take it to a high end retailer they will get a good price for their discovery. As for new nepherite carving, the price depends on the quality of the stone and also the quality of the carving. The chinese like a flawless white color with no crack lines. the color has also got to be even and as transparent as possible. The best stones are worth a lot of money but the lousy color like the mix up color which is neither green or white with black spots and lots of cracks are not worth very much may be a few dollars a kg. May be Anita might know better. As for carving style basically the more complex and graceful( chinese sense) the more expensive. The simple carvings are worth less like hongshan style carving. Size is also a factor the bigger the more expensive.Anyway my advise is not to buy new jade as it will not appreciate in price as china gets richer. Always buy the genuine antique, even if you can only buy one good piece a year, take it as a long term investment. |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Thu, Oct 04, 2007 Very interesting points Bill, I also would like to ask Anita why she is thinking that Tingjutang is selling his jade and where. If I remember well, also David supposed this previously in the chicochai forum. |
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Subject:Thank you..., Anita Mui
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Fri, Sep 28, 2007 I want to personally thank you for the hard work and dedication in helping me to warn the public, especially in outlining Chinese cultural relics law. |
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Subject:Re: Thank you..., Anita Mui
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Sat, Sep 29, 2007 Edward, |
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Subject:Re: Thank you..., Anita Mui
Posted By: Diasai Levine Sun, Sep 30, 2007 Dear Edward, |
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Subject:Let him who is without sin cast the first stone
Posted By: Bill Sun, Sep 30, 2007 To the honorable Mr. Shumaker: |
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Subject:Re: Let him who is without sin cast the first stone
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Tue, Oct 02, 2007 Dear Bill, |
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Subject:Mafia?
Posted By: Bill Wed, Oct 03, 2007 Interesting quote, did you make that up yourself or is there really a saying like that? |
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Subject:Re: Mafia?
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Thu, Oct 04, 2007 Bill, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Fri, Sep 28, 2007 Dear Anita, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: pipane Thu, Nov 22, 2007 Hello There, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Fri, Nov 23, 2007 Hello Pipane, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Pipane Tue, Nov 27, 2007 Thank you for correcting me, |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: adam Wed, Oct 10, 2012 Those artifacts are published from chinese private collections, they are fakes,higher quality, but still fake... I would only use the complete record of jade unearthed in China 15 volume series to authenticate any piece... Many other books just add fantasy to the confusion |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: sean Fri, Aug 04, 2017 lol.. yes he was my father and reading your comment ....lol... reminds me of my carving bad habits.. haha |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Sean Heathfield Tue, Apr 30, 2019 he died when i was just 13. i lost my father at a young age. :( |
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Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Josh Sun, Jun 25, 2017 The key to buying good jade on ebay is NEVER buy anything from China, number one, we all know the laws regarding export of cultural artifacts. The best jades come from backwoods Americans listing for buy it now as "some kind of stone, Jade? origin unknown to me" I have pieces worth millions purchased this way. My issue has always been provenance, as barn pickers rarely know anything about what they are selling. I bought a brown and white nephrite cong as a "bud vase" the other day, authentic to the period or not, the Jade is fantastic and natural, worth 20 times what I paid, even if early 20th century. |
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