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Hi Daryl,
I have heard of bronze tigers (dragons) being cast in two sections, one held by the Emperor, one held by the general, so either knew the message was authentic. I even had a 19th century fake one which I naively bought as genuine Han dynasty, in Taiwan in the mid 1980's.
I have never heard of a jade one.

A photo is always helpful, and without one, it is almost impossible to post an opinion which is reliable.
Regards
Tony

Hi Anthony,

I am looking for information from books reference as my jade reference book only shows two sample and the pictures was quite small and of bad quality. There are no detailed description on the period this type of jades are used.The book only described it as being used by the Chinese military.
I would appreciate if someone has read about it from their reference books or maybe information from online source and can share the information with me and other members.

Daryl

I attached a picture of a bronze tally from Qin Dynasty. This picture was provided by my friend Sal (thanks).

I will try to scan the picture of the jade tally.Does anyone know when this method was first used and when it ends?

Daryl

Quote from : http://www.kongming.net/novel/fujie/
"A Tiger Tally, or Fu Jie, is an Imperial Court order usually held by court officials to facilitate military or diplomatic operations in olden days. Usually, a Fu Jie was made of either bamboo, wood, bronze or jade. The order would be engraved onto its face and then the entire piece was split into half. The official who was to be given a Fu Jie (the action being Jia Jie) would be given one half. The other half could be used as a form of verification."

There are pictures of bronze and jade tally.The white jade tally is from Song Dynasty.







URL Title :Tiger Tally

There was a reference in a recent TV docudrama about the life of Emperor Chin. There was a reference in this program to one of the aides stealing a seal which enabled him to raise troops. The tradition is at least 2300 years of age.

Nick

I attached here a jade tally which was described by the seller ": “This is a Chinese double jade lion carving, place the pieces back-to-back to form the lion. The jade is a pale gray/green in color, each piece is signed and in good condition. Each piece is approximately 3" long and 1 1/4" wide. A local bought it in Kyoto in 1974 while on vacation" It is also described as from 1920 to 1940 period.

As I am not familiar with these jade tally, does anyone has any opinion on them?

Njg,

I am sure this tally has been used for over 2000 years as China then was in a constant war state among the tribes,but I am not sure when it was first used.


Daryl

More pictures. The jade tally was described by the seller as 1920's and should be modern.Someone informed me via e-mail that this is a modern jade which is the same as described by the seller.
I beg to differ and this is my observation.My observation from the condition of the jade, I would say this is a burial piece:
1. Color of the jade has been penetrated by the soil and thus the color change. The original color of the jade is gray.
2. The skin of the jade is wrinkled as can be seen from the picture on one of the piece. It takes a long time being buried for a jade to have this effect.
3. The surface of the jade is bulging and this also takes a long period of time buried.
4. Black spots on the surface of the jade which shows penetration of substance into the jade body
5. The sunken word exhibits a darker color due to the accumulation of earth in the groove while the raise word does not exhibit this.
6. The condition of the two-piece is totally different and this shows that one of the pieces was in contact with the earth while the other piece is not. The piece on top is also probably sheltered by some other material thus it still shows the original color of the jade, grayish color.
7. The surface of the jade shows some clouding effect which is also a long process being buried.
My observation on the carving:
1. The carving exhibits old style of carving and not by modern machine as if we look at the ear, the way it is carved round takes several small cuts in order to make a round. Of course this can be fake but probably not on this piece.
2. The curling motive, which is used in old jade carving. Of course this can be fake also.
3. The simplicity of the design and carving indicate an old style carving. Of course this can also be fake.

Any opinion anyone?

Daryl

I found this previous discussion on the jade tally which is an obvious fake.

Daryl

URL Title :ARF Previous Discussion

One more discussion on the jade tally which accoding to Anthony M. Lee is a fake which I totally agree.

Daryl

URL Title :ARF Previous Discussion

I enclosed another picture which shows the front view.

Daryl



URL Title :Sui Dynasty Tiger Tally

Hi Daryl,
The deeper cut areas are corroded, and the more "exposed " areas are in pretty good shape. The inside is pristine. I hear warning bells.
Ernest

Additional picture of the jade tally.

Daryl

A short and interesting discussion at: www. the-scholars.com on tiget tally.

Daryl

URL Title :Discussion on Tiger Tally

Hi Ernest,

Is this part you are refering to? It is due to the camera angle that it looks like it is not exposed? It is also subjected to the environment as you can see from this picture attached.
Sometimes burial jade are subjected to different condition and some parts shows more exposure to the soil and corroded and some parts does not show any effect at all.There are jades that half of it were corroded while the other half is in excellent condition.It will only be our speculation on what actually happen during the time it was buried.

I will not be able to give the answer now on the condition as I am still waiting for it to arrive.Hopefully,I will receive it by end of this month.

Daryl

To my eye, it appears that this gem has been aged by a corrosive agent. Buried jade does tend to take (rather... absorb) that which surrounds it (dirt, decaying materials, etc) but it doesn't really corrode until it is rather fully saturated. I don't see any such signs on this piece. It appears more likely that a corrosive agent was used to fast-age the gem. Too, when you look at the matching inside areas, they are almost pristine. It is unlikely that burial would have resulted in such uneven aging. The entire exterior should have been affected.

Hi Daryl,
I know you would dearly love this jade to be genuine, as I am sure every collector does when they find what they believe is a rare treasure. The fact is however it is obviously not either old nor of imperial quality. What is also not mentioned is that the jades which you illustrate to compare them with, are themselves fakes. They come from the Hong Kong Middle Kingdom Museum, and are illustrated on a web-site.
http://www.kongming.net/novel/fujie/

If you go into the Hong Kong Tourist web-site, you will see they say about the museum, and I quote "Adjacent to Ocean Park is Middle Kingdom, which presents a "living" history of China through replicas of ancient palaces and pagodas, temples and street scenes".

I stress the word REPLICAS.

I have attached for comparison, two photos of genuine Western Han dynasty jades from the travelling exhibition, "War and Peace".

You will note the following dissimilarities:
1. Your tally is carved from a stone (I am not even sure that it is jade), of inferior quality, unlike anything an Emperor or his court would give to an emissary to ensure the receiver knew the message was genuine.
2. It is poorly carved and lacks the finish of genuine archaic Imperial jades.
3. It has the polished high points and rough white recesses which indicate modern manufacture.

The subject has been thrashed to death on the chicochai jade forum site. There are still those that believe this coarse alterated surface is a sign of a genuine old jade, despite the wealth of evidence that refutes it. But if one has hundreds and even thousands of similar fake jades in one's collection, the reaction is understandable.

Sorry Daryl, but I remain an unbeliever.

Regards
Tony

Allen

As I am only just a beginner collector of jade, I appreciate very much your expert opinion.I posted the jade from Kongming is to show that jade tiger tally does exist as many people has been saying that they have never heard of jade tiger tally.I will try to get the pictures from the reference books showing two different jade tally.
Jade tally does not necessarily mean that it must be from imperial as it is used during the battle and at no time,I am implying that it is imperial.
This cannot be compared to Han jade as the carving and design style is not Han.The style indicates more to Song/Yuan period.
The one main suspect is the spurious carved word that does not exist in Chinese.This indicate that it is a fake.

Daryl

Attached the pictures of the four words which are archaic Chinese, therefor making this jade tiger a FAKE.It must have been a copy of the Qing bronze tiger tally.The style of this jade is Song style and archaic Chinese would not be used then.
Thanks to all who participated in this discussion.

Daryl

Someone asked me via e-mail asking what I am trying to pull from the board. I told him I have yet to receive the jades items ad it is on the way from US and the final two pictures was only provided to me after my last post.After looking at the photos,I know I am wrong in my assessment and admitted that I am wrong.I am wrong and this is not the seller's fault as it was described as 1920 to 1940's item.

I also told him that it is better and painless to admit that one is wrong in the judgement rather than to absolutely beieved that it is a treasure and grudgingly forced to admit it might be a fake or refused to believe it is a fake.
This is part of the fun in collecting,sometimes you get a treasure and sometimes you get thrash.

There are lots of collectors out there who steadfastly believing that the antiques they have are treasures and refused to trust the opinion of others that they are fake. This is very pathetic as only after the collectors passed away,their heir believing they have treasure only to find out otherwise when they tried to sell them.


Daryl

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