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To my beloved jade collectors

Jade speaks for itself, how can this piece be authenticated as of The Shang Dynasty, claimed by Chico fake jade forum, the house of buyer and seller of HK factory who have magic trick to make lumps and holes on jade. Brain washing new jade collectors with only 2 things of aging evidence that they use to date the junks there, "whitening and raise of crystal" claimed fake to be genuine.

Those pieces come with the lab test from the university of Brisbane, a skinny uv ray, exay test..can you beleive it?

A common sense we are talking here!

Have fun
Anita Mui

Anita,

I will confirm the authenticity of the bronze axe. I've seen it! See link below.

Cheers,
Stan

URL Title :Treasures of China

Dear Jade pals

The X-ray diffraction were carried out through both the Queensland Institute of Technology and the University of Queensland in Brisbane on "grindings" from the raised crystals, and it was proved to be tremolite. This doesn't mean that it is old, authentic or real. The result can not prove anything but what kind of minerals are there.

I do not think that both universities can identify and authenticate Chinese antique jade as the excused of this fraud and forgery jade seller.

Reading that forum is the most entertainment.

Pls use your common sense and excavated record of China Cultural Relics bureau.

See more pictures below.

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S. they dated this axe as of "Zhou dynasty", how funny is that.

Dear Stan

That's Shang bronze axe I posted is from your picture.

Below is the picture of the same axe excavated at Yidu, Shangdong Province, 1956. Another one with coil dragon belongs to Hache Yue en bronze, Chine du Nord, dynastie Shang, 13�me - 11�me si�cle -JC. Mus�e Guimet, Paris.
--------------------------------

One of the forum member sent me an email and had noticed that the lump was cut and engraved into 3 sections after the faking process ( not only 2 parts as seen in my picture). This indicates fake with bad workmanship as well as silly authentication.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Hi Anita,

It does look like another case of:
conveniently non-existant provenance, which they would say is meaningless anyways,
another case of poor lapidary work which they will say everyone is imagining,
and another case of artwork which they will tout as masterfully original, even though you have shown a bronze ax which exhibits a remarkably similar motif.

I remember a recent discussion of hydrofluoric acid (HF) in which they kept laughing off the acid as the means of producing the alledged raised (exposed) tremolite crystals by desolving the nephrite crystal matrix, because along with the nephrite crystals, any carvings exposed to the acid would also be desolved.
And yet when the owner of this piece posted these photos, she and her gang of sycophants who are so fond of ridiculing anyone with a disenting opinion were quick to attack the member who posted the photo with arrows below, rather than to attempt to answer his questions based on the same points which they had earlier made about how the surface would be affected by HF.

Of course, the mentioning of HF is perhaps just another form of misdirection since it is the most likely type of acid to quickly desolve the nephrite crystal matrix. The main point here is that "whatever" treatment caused the effect we see in this photo at the edge of the translucent area, does not seem likely to have naturally avoided the translucent area which is devoid of subsurface tremolite crystals since the nephrite crystals above and below are severely degraded. Why would the more pure nephrite crystals of the translucent area remain unaffected?
It looks more like the translucent area was selectively avoided for lack of subsurface crystals to expose.....oops!
As always, the arguments for the crystals are extremely hollow and as with the authenticity and dating issues, they base their findings on conjecture, wishful thinking, artistic expression as they see it, their own personal opinions, and most of all "because we say so".
Comparison to authentic pieces agreed upon by scholars is only done out of convenience, and usually mixed in unannounced between their collected pieces in order to draw someone in to say the authentic pieces are fakes.

The studies of raised and or exposed crystals in scientific articles such as Acta Taiwanica, and subsequent articles and postings by geologists such as Janet Douglas and Fred Cook, are frequently taken out of context and mis-quoted as being the "rosetta stone" of determining the age of a jade artifact. However, if anyone points out how the test results were based strictly on the objects which were submitted for testing and should not be considered a rubber stamp solution for determining the age of an artifact, or that the scientists could not speculate on the length of time it takes for the crystals to become raised naturally, or whether it would be possible to grow crystals on the surface of an object artificially, the raised crystal lovers will fall back and say that the number one means of determining authenticity is the artwork, not the science. They want to have their cake and eat it too.
Fortunately, these documents are available for people to read in context, and through my own communications with Fred Cook, I have learned that science is a long ways from coming to any conclusions as regards raised crystals being an indicator which will allow scientists to determine the age of a jade artifact. There are just too many variables as to the chemical makeup of the soils, the composition and temperature of the water in the soil, and even other items within the burial including the body.

The fact that these alledgedly authentic pieces were removed from burial sites without documenting the chemical makeup of the soil and the physical data of the burial depth and other important factors allows these collectors to perpetuate their own makeshift theories, without contributing anything to the scientific theories they are trying to use as proof of age. Any scientific, anthropologic, or archaeological hypothesesis they try to come up with will always be tainted.

It must be remembered also that while the scientific and academic communities can look at and evaluate how porphyroblast crystals within the nephrite matrix can become raised or pushed above the surface of the matrix by the formation of other crystals within the matrix, they have no valid reason to spend research grants on proving or disproving the crystals as a means of dating an artifact, or on how to grow surface crystals or expose porphyroblast crystals within the nephrite matrix which would be more of a commercial endeavor for the multi-million dollar per year Worldwide jade industry since the authenticity of museum jades is ideally based on provenance and documented excavation, NOT surface weathering and crystals.

Just as we see countless faked, forged, and reproduced ceramic objects that were the result of extensive experimentation in some cases in order to create interesting decorator items, and in some cases to defraud serious collectors. Just as we see masterpieces of artwork from every era which took advantage of the best technology they had at the time, and cunning craftsmanship by artists who could could have easily made a name for themselves on their own merit. Although some collectors whom I respect will disagree with me, I believe that whether these hundreds of pieces in T&T's collection were forged, faked or reproduced last week or hundreds of years ago, each generation of jade craftsmen has always had access to the traditional tools and techniques, as well as the ability to incorporate newer tools, newer technologies, and whatever they could come up with to enhance the popularity of the item.
There are even lasers which are used to engrave the image from a photograph or artwork onto stone surfaces, including jade.

I am willing to concede that some or many of T&T's pieces are authentic. I am also willing to concede that many of the pieces feature awesome lapidary work, and even what appears to be authentic ancient script. Just as with the scientific evaluations, each piece would need to be examined on its own merit, and the script characters translated to see if the script makes any sense or is only a conglomerate of copied characters.
And of course all of the information surrounding the location where the alledged artifact was excavated, which cannot be provided, is what would be needed by actual jade scholars, archaeologists, anthropologists and geologists to ascertain authenticity of an artifact with any degree of certainty.

Having gone back through the archives and looked at the hundreds of pieces in T&T's collection which T has posted, I am perplexed that for as much as T professes to be an expert, and as much as she is worshiped by her followers, she seems ill prepared to make anything but the most minimal of attributions when it comes to period, location of discovery, or dynasty.
In fact, she and her followers do not seem to care the least bit about the anthropology of the civilizations who's tombs they are robbing should the pieces be authentic, nor does it seem to be a problem that they are funding the grave robbing mechanism by which archaeologists will be denied the chance to study the excavations. In fact, they are quick to ridicule any excavations by Chinese government achaeologists, and prefer to believe whatever sketchy information the black marketeers might provide.

Of course as was pointed out elsewhere, if the Australian Commonwealth took action to stop the illegal importation of dinosaur eggs, why would they allow the continual illegal importation of the national treasures of China? I suppose that leaves two possibilities, either T&T are smugglers of the worst kind bringing items into the country by the same clandestine methods as would be utilized by drug runners, or the alledged artifacts are cleared through customs because they are reproductions.

For a group of "collectors", who fancy themselves as "scholars", I find their closed-mindedness laughable, their methods of discussing points of authenticity despicable, and their general sense of right and wrong as being represented by the foul-mouthed and immature "Joe" who is essentially a racist, fascist, elitist sociopath who can't seem to express an original idea which makes sense on his own. And although he loves to promote himself as an artistic genius, he is simply a caricature of a computer internet warrior, and most likely a pimple-faced thirty-something newspaperboy living in his parents basement.

There are a couple of them who are well spoken, and they try to make the same arguments in a more civilized manner, however if they are unable to succeed, the crystal goon squad will soon take over the thread and in many cases begin cannibalising those on their own side who try to make their points without resorting to sophmoric schoolyard taunts.
From what I have read in the Chicochai archives, as a senior member, T severely diminishes her own credibility by constantly allowing Joe and a few others to repeatedly attack anyone who doesn't follow the party lines.
The pathetic Joe will probably say I am simply a "philistine", or that I can't see real art, or that I am jealous. That is his only artistic quality, is that he has created a form of performance art based on rabidly insulting anyone and everyone who disagrees with the crystallite crew, and himself in particular.
Joe also likes to remind Bill and Diasai that they were shunned and ridiculed by the Asian Arts Forum for their outlooks on jade.
I think that is an unfair and inaccurate assessment of our discussions here which were less to do with whatever theories they had about determining the authenticity and mineralogical properties of an alledged jade artifact, and more to do with trying to stop them from promoting eBay as a venue where authentic artifacts could be found on a regular basis. Bill and Diasai's theories on collecting jade are more appropriate to the Chicochai forum which if moderated, would be a place for different theories to be discussed in a civil manner. In fact, I think Bill and Diasai's comments in the Chicochai forums hold just as much water as anyone else's.

Considering that T and her sycophants continually bash and insult anyone outside of their own group, and regularly describe everyone in the Asian Arts Forum in the most derogatory terms, I found it laughable that while refering to Chicochai members who disagree with their crystal rubber stamp theories, T posted a statement in which she wrote:
"We have had a great deal of correspondence from watchers of both these forums, and the results are all positive. It seems that stupidity is not catching!"
This statement epitomizes the self-authentication, the arrogant attitude of perceived superiority, and the statements which cannot be proven, nor disproven which T and her followers use to circumvent having to discuss anything in a civil manner.

Quoting Shakespeare from Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Apart from the issues of age, authenticity, and possibly being the scourge of Chinese archaeology, and anthropology, I really like T&T's collection and if they turn it over to the Chinese authorities, and the government accepts the collection and places it in a museum, maybe then I will believe they are not mostly reproductions.
Somehow I doubt she or her over-zealous followers will be amused with my comments, but if nothing else they will be reminded that the whole World is watching, and just because people are not lining up to be abused by her thugs, does not mean they agree with the programming. We see every time they dodge a question. We see how they will even attack each other for being too nice to the enemies of the state. They are about as scholarly as mindless zombies.

Each of them has the opportunity each day to make their own decisions.

Cheers
Gman

Dear Gman

Your opinnion are worth billions to me, thanks.

However, I can quarantee you with my head that "There is no authentic piece at T&T collection". Some are taylor-made, copied from books, designed by T&T, foolishly mixed up with all style of chinese dynasties. The overall pictures are ood, obvious, baroque, bad proportion, same stone and same surface. how do you feel when you visit the museum with many weird stones of the same type and the same dirt.

I look at T&T collection, piece by piece, it makes me feel uncomfortable, there is something missing, as well as a little bit too much on each of them.

You can find the duplicates at, the supplier warehouse, Skylink, any pieces, any style you name it.

Have fun
anita Mui

Note to Joe:

I figured you would say that I was a "coward" for posting here instead of at Chicochai.
Be advised that the same lack of moderation that allows you to stanch any meaningful discussions, scrape off old scabs, and constantly bully others into fearing your wrath if they consort with the enemies of the state, also apparently is no longer accepting new members or I would have posted all of this to you there.
And yes, anyone who cannot be civil enough to discuss both sides of any argument without resorting to the sort of vile comments you make is a goon in my book.
I am not surprised that you resorted to your usual divide and conquer tactics by pointing out to Randall that he was included in the goon squad comment.
I know that regardless of his stance on the issues that you use to drive a wedge between the various members and their personal theories, he is one of the members who would like to get past all of the animosity which you constantly seek to draw out of each member.
It seems to be your contention that either someone believes every piece in T's collection is authentic, or they believe every piece is a fake.
I for one don't see it as being that simple, but apparently you lacked the comprehension skills to successfully glean that from my above statements.
Whatever Anita's issues are with you and the others at Chicochai, I have a feeling you and your insultant performance art had a lot to do with it.
Right or wrong, Anita demonstrates what she is trying to say, and gives reasons why.
You on the other hand say "no no no no no no no no no no.....because I said so".

You will attack others and stir up trouble, and make sure everyone stays on opposite sides of the divide and will take it upon yourself to place anyone who disagrees with you and your "team" on the other side of that divide which you perpetuate.

They must agree with you, or they will face your wrath.
As I said, each day they have the opportunity to make the decision to discuss the opposing theories in a rational, civil manner based on what has been said, rather than the words you constantly put in other's mouths.
Or they can decide to simply avoid discussions with members of opposing theories.
I think you all may do well to study the posts by Fred Cook in order to learn the proper civilized manner of discussing an opposing viewpoint.

And yes, I posted those photo's of T's collection originally as a service to the Chicochai members in order to make them more quickly accessable, which if my membership had been approved I would have made the members aware of. The objects are attributed to T without any derogatory comments of any kind.

Nice of you to mention and ridicule me for my involvement with Christian missionaries and humanitarian work with Burmese refugees in Thailand.
However, trust me Joe, God loves you even though you don't believe he exists.

Oh, you forgot to ridicule my work as a developer of Flight Simulator scenery, and my twenty plus years as an antique dealer.

To the other guys who are on Joe's side by necessity, by belief, or out of fear of Joe's reprisals, as well as those who oppose his opinions, do you really want to be like Joe?

The whole World is watching.

Cheers
Gman

Gman: what is your opinion on this Jadeite Egg with inlay featuring dragon with five claws chasing flaming pearl. Egg appears to be an urn with a definite difference in colour and vein lines between bottoms of egg and top. Warring states period finished as can be seen by the impressive inlay, stand and egg itself appears to be older - much. Has calcification , aged skin and is a mystery to the contents although is imperial or royal (five clawed dragon , stand us zoomorphic of four frogs (as seen in 2000+ bc). I have owned for approx five years and in this time have spent over 10000 hrs trying to identify as fake or modern but cannot fault the item, Dr Chan from Jade palace (museum of Taipai) agrees that is jadeite and at least warring states period of age. Your opinion would be appreciated Thankyou kind regards Nathan kelly

Dear Anita,

I had the pleasure to read a lot of postings from you, gman and other "experts" here.
For myself I cannot say that I am an expert in chinese jade, but in ancient history.

Yesterday I found a webside from gman, where he posted stories about jade and a huge lot of items from that he called t & t collection.

First I was astonished to find the word laoyu. because it is not even known in todays knowledge.

but you seem to be an expert. you will give your head, that all this items, gman put on his webside from that t&t ??? group are faked.

for me, some of this items look like laoyu.

so please, as an expert tell me, what is your knowledge about laoyu. it is important, because when you are going to declare all that items to fake, you must be an expert in laoyu. I think, you clearly do understand my question. please explain to all that guys here including my person, what is your understanding of ancient laoyu jade and its change during time.

another point. you say, all that items look similar. I see all that items you post similar. similar cleaned and destroyed.

Sorry for my poor english. But this posting is translated from a friend, who is also not perfect in english.

One more question. do you know the deeper background of ancient artifacts, made by neolitic people? do you know, that they brought in a special magic, they got as a mandat from heaven? Do you know, that old carved jade is the connection to the upper dimensions?
who has the right, to destroy this ancient wisdom and sacred items while cleaning it and showing this cleaned artifacts to the rest of the world.

if there is a rest of respect, knowing about ancient thinking, never this will be done.

but for this new age thinking, you and some other guys speak about poor and perfect. you use perfect for cleaned and damaged artifacts and you call those poor, which are left as they are.

I have a lot of respect for your permanent posting here. you want to find out the truth. but sorry, feel in your deep soul and there maybe you find an answer. stop before answering and think. I feel, there is someone inside of you who rules your mind. it's normal, because all of us have the same. but the way you work here is not usual.

I never will give my head for an opinion. you never had that t%t pieces in your hand.
do you know, what you are saying: "i give my head that all that items are faked" believe me, a lot of energetic beeings wait for your head.
this is not what god teached us.

Hope, you understand my spirit in this letter. not easy to express my chinese thinking in poor english.

gman, what is your target? hope not that opinion which pipane shows all of us.

for me i suggest: anita is right sometimes, you are also, pipane also, t%t also, don't know what is about this joe, but doesn't matter.

but one thing i have learned, studying old history. government never tells the truth. not in history, not in jade items, not in politic matters.
why? desinformation! we fight about the truth, each against the other. in that time they can do their work.

have also fun

drag

Dear "drag",

I like to read what people post a couple of times and let their words breath a bit before I respond.

Your English is pretty good, and I was just wondering how weird it was to have a Chinese man who has the same writing style as the Chicochai forum member "winfriedsiebert", who is an eBay dealer in Germany.

Even weirder still was that when I checked your IP address 80.141.66.57, it turns out that you are in Germany too! (Cologne)

Quote drag"
"Yesterday I found a webside from gman, where he posted stories about jade and a huge lot of items from that he called t & t collection."

Please post for us a link to this website where I have posted stories about jade.


I have posted to Webshots some of the photos which T has posted at Chicochai over the years in order to make them more accessable to everyone who may want to study/admire them.

Other than to give the photos the same identifying terms which they were originally posted with, and attributing them to T, I made no remarks of any kind.

Sagen Sie die Wahrheit n�chste Zeit
Cheers
Gman

Dear Drag

I'm confused. Please type "laoyu" in Chinese for me.

Thanks

Anita Mui

Dear Anita,

I think that the Laoyu of what Drag tried to convey is 老玉-meaning old jade.

Happy Chinese New Year!

Randy Li

Dear Randy

Thanks, I just want to know if Drag is really Chinese from mainland as he claimed.

--------------------

Dear Gman

Thanks for ip info, I have never checked people ip address, but from now on I have to.
--------------------------------

Dear Drag, Hongshan, winfriedsiebert, or whatever names you use in our world best Asian art forum.

Your ip addresses of Hongshan and Drag are from the same RIPE Network Coordination Centre, Amsterdam.

Since Skylink is your supplier, the same source of counterfeit products shown in Chico forum, luring innocent people to fall in your trick of "forgery and fraud theories of how to authenticate Chinese antique jade artefacts".

Below is your website, selling junks like Chico, T&T supplied by Skylink.

http://www.corwinvonamber.de/2.html
---------------

I do beleive in karma, it will come back to you twice or tripple making your life miserable. You see Ian of TJR for example, long illness of cancer, that what karma has done its job.

"Please come clean, or not come at all!"
-------------------------------------
Pls read the old post

1)Big Jade fakers on the net

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/subforum.php?method=detailAll&Id=21764&sfid=4

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15826&st=15

2)Have u ever read what I replied to your username Hongshan?

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/subforum.php?method=detailAll&Id=28995&sfid=4

Have fun
Anita mui

Dear Anita,
the following line was inappropriate in any context.

Quote."I do beleive in karma, it will come back to you twice or tripple making your life miserable. You see Ian of TJR for example, long illness of cancer, that what karma has done its job."

Please think about what you are saying.
Mehmet

Hi Anita,
In the context of your making a point in English, I just want to advise you that while the remark about Kharma is open to philosophical discussion, it is better not to specify particular individuals.
Examples:
OK) People who sin without repentance are destined to go to Hades.
NOT OK) If XXX does not stop sinning and repent, he will go to Hades.

Based on what you have written here in the past, and the fact that English is not your native language, I am doubting you made that statement with a hateful intent.

*****************************************
Poor Joe, as usual, has attached himself to your statement like a leech, and he is sucking as much blood out of it as the sick man's body can produce.

I doubt you meant for anyone to take grim pleasure in that person's sickness, but Joe is mockingly milking it for all it is worth.

He is about to drown himself in "crocodile tears".

Joe,
NOBODY that knows how you are believes for one moment that you are the least bit concerned for that man other than taking advantage of him as another tool to practice your troublemaking performance art.

By the way Joe, the AAF format is not the same as the chat room format at Chicochai, on the weekend the moderators take some time off.

I'd also like to say that being a Christian does not preclude anyone from standing up to petty tyrants. I regret writing that you don't believe God exists, and I apologize for writing that.

However, actions speak louder than words.
The way you present yourself, the way you constantly bring out the worst in everyone, the way everything you accuse others of is what you do day-in and day-out, your inability to communicate without resorting to taking the low road.... you are intellectually hobbled.

As for your attack on Anita for her Kharma statement, you are the blackest of pots calling the kettle black.

Actions speak louder than words Joe, everything you write is on record, none of it is contributable to English not being your native language, and the public jurists can go back and see your methods, your twisting of words, your mockery, your synicism, your inability to accept any opinion that does not fit your own myopic views.
These are NOT insults, they describe YOU.

And given all of your posturing as a jade collector always using "We", and "Us", and "Our", when describing Chicochai forum jade collections,...... what the public jurists won't see is any photos of your jade collection.

Tell you what, spread all of your pieces out on a newspaper so we will all know it is not just a copy of someone else's jades and post it, and I will apologize for saying you don't have a jade collection.
Actions speak louder than words.

It is never too late for you to join the civilized world, how about tommorrow?

Cheers
Gman

Your post raises an issue which is most important to me: if T&T's jades are genuine, and I repeat, if, then they are either artifact smugglers or thieves, or at the very least fencers of stolen property. They, and their admirers on the chicochai board, seem not to care a bit about the irreparable loss of knowledge of the ancient cultures which produced these works. How much do we know about the Liangzhu or Hongshan cultures? Almost nothing, and any knowledge which would have come from a controlled excavation of these pieces has been lost.

Of course, the artifact thieves and their enablers always have their ready-made excuses--"If I don't sell them, someone else will"; "I'm just fulfilling a demand", etc., etc. But in the end, these people don't really care, as long as they have their "masterpieces" available for suitable worship.

As far as I, and others who are interested in anthropology, history and archaeology above art-worship are concerned, these people are criminals who belong behind bars. They are participants in the looting of humankind's historical and cultural heritage.

And in case Trish's venomous little lapdog "Joe" wishes to accuse me of "jealousy" (his favorite charge), I wish to point out that I have no interest whatsoever in ownership of these jade artifacts. They deserve to be excavated and studied scientifically, and after they have revealed their secrets, displayed in museums for all the public to see and admire--not just a handful of "It's mine, ALL MINE!" collectors. Let the collectors collect books, and view their masterpieces in museums.

Since the addy for the photos I posted at Webshots of the T&T's collection has been put up at Chicochai, I may as well let everyone here take a look too.

In the meantime, here is an informative write-up on tomb raiding in China from a poster at the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery.
The photo which I transcribed this from was posted at Chicochai by member JohnC.

One way or another, it seems quite relevant to this thread.

Gman

Tomb Robbing In China
(from a poster at the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery)

Theft from ancient tombs has been a major problem throughout Chinese history. It should be pointed out that the majority of these tombs were looted in antiquity, and centuries have passed since they were stripped of their precious consignments of jade, gold and silver. However, ancient tomb raiders frequently left ceramic and other "worthless" items untouched. Ironically, some of these tombs are being re-looted today as these once-scorned items (such as ceramic tomb figurines) are now highly prized and sought after. Thus modern Chinese archaeologists find themselves following in the footsteps of both ancient and modern grave robbers, salvaging anything left over from these repeated plunders.

Collecting antiquities, like tomb raiding, has a long history in China. During the Song dynasty (960-1279), voluminous illustrated catalogues of bronze and jade artefacts in imperial (and private) collections were meticulously compiled. The Song emperor Huizong (1100-1126) is famous for his antiquarian interests, especially his collection of ancient ritual bronzes, which were said to number in the thousands, with one source stating that they amounted to ten thousand items. Among the most prominent Song archaeological catalogues were the Kaogu Tu (written in 1092 by Lu Dalin), the Xuanhe Bogu Tulu (the catalogue of bronzes collected by the Song emperor, Huizong, and the Guyu Tupu(supposedly listing the ancient jade collection of the Song emperor, Xiaodong (1163-1190), in 100 chapters referring to over 700 pieces).

There was also another group during the Song who were fascinated by antiquities: the literati, or scholar officials. The literati had an enlightened attitude towards their collections and were engaged in research concerned with the identification, etymology, dating and interpretation of ancient bronzes and jades. From the Song dynasty until modern times, it became commonplace for Chinese literati to collect and display antiquities on their desks and in their homes.

Literature from the Song period suggests that the great popularity of antiquities had led some early collectors to go to great lengths in acquiring the objects of their passion. R.C. Rudolph in his article entitled "Notes on Sung Archaeology" in the journal of Asian Studies, XXII, No. 2, 1963, page 175, writes: "In books of this period, one frequently encounters the expression: [There was no place where people did not go in their search for ancient bronzes, marshes were drained and hills were dug into, and no important tomb in the empire remained unopened.]" On page 174 Rudolph also relates that Emperor Huizong's Prime Minister, Cai Jing,
"appointed a scoundrel named Zhu Mien as procurement officer, and this political opportunist spent millions in cash on the
transportation of a single boatload of these curiosities, and did not hesitate to dredge river channels, tear down bridges, destroy
tombs, and ruin private property in order to carry out this plan." It is easy to imagine that this early tomb raiding must have been
quite extensive, especially considering the suggested collusion between tomb raiders and the government.

The artefact hunt continued into the twentieth century, although the collectors, and thus the destination of the plundered objects, had changed. In the early part of the last century, as China began modernizing and built its first railway, workers frequently cut through ancient cemeteries, thus unearthing many stunning funerary artefacts. When it became apparent that these mortuary items were held in high esteem in the West, and the connoisseurs of Chinese art would pay enormous prices to aquire them, grave
robbers accelerated the process by organizing numerous clandestine raids on ancient cemeteries. The burial objects they found
were sold around the world with little or no accompanying information as to the objects' actual origins. There are so many ancient tombs in China that any construction project such as the building of a road, the development of a high-rise, or even the excavation of a well, has a good chance of unearthing an antique treasure.

Following the Communist takeover of China in 1949, illegal tomb raiding had largely stopped and all excavations were government-controlled. Recently, however, the People's Daily reported that what used to be a trickle of plundered funerary treasures leaving the country has now become a flood. A new breed of sophisticated and ruthless tomb raider is looting on a gargantuan scale from an estimated third of the country's national treasures (more than 400,000 archaeological sites) and most of these are ancient tombs. Local police have been asked to patrol the sites but because of the sheer number of locations the task is next to impossible. Chinese authorities do take the theft of national treasures very seriously, and if caught, the thieves can face long prison terms or even death. Most of the original perpetrators are poor local peasants who hand over the artefacts to international networks which then smuggle them to Europe, America and other parts of Asia. The raids usually take place at night and require that the thief tunnel into a tomb chamber. As these are usually filled with stale air, the truly well-prepared have been known to don gas masks. In some recent cases, thieves have done incalculable damage by using dynamite to open ancient tombs. The huge demand for Chinese antiquities has, according to Chinese news sources, also led to artefacts being stolen out of Chinese museums, often by museum employees.

Another outcome of the hunger for Chinese treasures has been the rise in counterfeit antiquities. This trade also has its origins in
the past, starting centuries ago with the demand for ancient jades and bronzes. Sometimes the imitations were made not to swindle, but were rather out of reverence for past accomplishments. As of the twentieth century, however, and to this day, forgeries of ancient artefacts are big business. The copies fall into two groups: those made in good faith as replicas, and those made deliberately to deceive the buyer into thinking he or she has aquired an original (for a suitably substantial sum). Some of todays fakes are so well crafted that they are almost indistinguishable from genuine artefacts except by knowledgeable experts.
There are a few ways to positively ascertain the difference between a good fake and an original, though they require a reputable organization to scientifically analyze bronze content in bronze artefacts, or use a dating process called thermoluminescence (ionized radiation) in the case of ceramics, or to employ radiocarbon dating for artefacts made from organic materials.



URL Title :Trish Jades I

Hello David Wei,

you must cool down, your point of view is very limited.

Concerning the TT jades; They are certainly either cultural relics nor authentic.

Concerning Hongshan and other neolithic inner mongolian or chinese cultures; Almost all graves has, obviously, already been looted before our common era.

Concerning Private Collectors of Antiques; Every serious Private Collector with an important collection has, sooner or later, bequeaths it's collection/s to some Museum, in the case of jade see: Ernest Erickson, Severance Millikin, Gunnar Anderson and many others and this will also remain the same in future. Museums would be empty without the support of private collectors or either equipped by remains of plunder from colonial times of all ages only (Sumerian, Egyptian, Indian, Tibetan, Japanese, Chinese...).

Diasai

Dear David Wei

Once the China Cultural Relic Bureau laid eyes on those T&T collection of junks, they laugh out loud.

BAD FAKE, many errors are found on every pieces, like a dumb worker carves a dragon look similar to a rat.
----------------------------

Below are another error of too much fantasy of dumb people who intended to make these pieces look special to be sole in the high price. They are very very bad design.

That Aussie fake jade dealer claimed that they are Jade Ryton Cups from the Han Dynasty, dug up from somewhere in Brisbane outback..that's was fun...try to use that fakes to drink it yourself la.
-------------------

Jade Rhyton (libation cup)

Many different types of vessels were used for consuming wine in the Han dynasty. This type of cup, known as a horn cup, is similar in shape to a slightly slanted rhinoceros horn. It probably is a product of cultural exchange between the Han dynasty and nomadic peoples of Central Asia. Carved from light greenish jade, the exterior of the cup coils a powerful, awe-inspiring dragon, its large tail curves well over the cup and expresses the extraordinary power of this supernatural animal. The solid, flowing lines reveal the force and confidence in unique to Han dynasty craftsmanship as well as the advanced techniques in jade carving at the time.
This work, its which borrows the horn cup shape, originated in Central Asia combining the Han Chinese dragon decoration, concretely reflect the assimilative and innovative spirit of Han craftsmanship.
http://www.npm.gov.tw/exh97/audio/aaa_E322.html

Have fun
Anita Mui

Quoting the owner of the piece Anita is describing from a rebuttle at Chicochai:

"The rhyton shown above is one of a pair that were on exhibition at the Asia International Art and Antiques Fair, held at the World Expo Site in Hong Kong from May 28th to June 2nd, 2006. Included in this exhibition were jades from our collection, dating from Neolithic to Qing. They were vetted by �experts� from around the world before being accepted for exhibition. Exhibitors included all the big names, i.e. Poly Musem, Chait, Bonham, Keverne, etc., etc.

Ms. Mui has done her usual artwork to trash the rhyton, complaining that it was not useful as a drinking vessel and is certainly a fake. She has stamped it with her normal form of disapproval."

Dear "T",

I am able to put aside the issue of authenticity, and as with almost anything posted at any online antiquities forum where all of the background information is supplied by the poster, I can go with what you have stated in lieu of a written document from whomever "vetted" the pair of jade "rhytons" at the exhibition you spoke of.

And I know full well that my opinion means less than nothing to you or those whom accept your statements at face value as regards each piece in your vast collection of jade objects.

However, how can you dispute Anita's suggestion that they were more likely used as flower vases than drinking vessels? She has very clearly demonstrated that as drinking vessels they would be extremely awkard to use, especially with the pierced carving work.

Perhaps additional photos would show that the carvings are simply recessed and not pierced.
Or that there is a pouring spout which would make it useful as a drinking vessel. However, this is not apparent in the photos you have shown.

At the very least, you could have just come out and agreed with her that in light of what she has pointed out, that she is perhaps correct that they were likely flower vases in a rhyton "form".

But as usual you had to "be right", and choose instead to ridicule the manner with which she demonstrated visually what she was trying to describe.

In a fairly extensive search of the internet, I found no other instances of pairs of jade rhytons.

All of the rhytons I saw, regardless of the country of their origin, were designed as drinking vessels, many of which were made without a base so that they could not be laid down until they were emptied.

Anyone can do their own search so I won't get into posting any long articles.

I doubt if you will ever have everyone agree that every piece in your collection is authentic.

I certainly think your critics could be a bit more tactful in their criticism, and that you and your proponents could be more forthcoming in your descriptions of why you think a piece is authentic beyond the incomplete scientific information on the surface alterations, and the artistic interpretations which are the easiest parts to copy.
That is why discussion and debate are better for promoting understanding than everyone simply agreeing or disagreeing.
Show us how you can demonstrate your points in favor of authenticity, instead of just denying the points made by others against it.
Don't worry, those who are interested know where to find your responses.

Cheers
Gman

CORRECTION
The photo of the tomb robbing article was posted at Chicochai by member Leonard in his thread titled "Victoria Exhibit", presumably from the museum in Victoria, British Columbia.

There were other museum photos by JohnC from the Sackler Gallery posted the same day, and I got confused....ooops.

Here is the link to the second group of photos at Webshots of the T&T jade collection which have been posted at Chicochai.

Gman

URL Title :Trish Jades II

Dear David,

You do have certain valid points! But, most jades in worldwide museums and in the traditional collectors' hands were dug out by ancient grave robbers and were passed down through generations. I read of a case that an ancient Emperor directed his soldiers to break into ancient graves to retreived archaic jades. Same cases happened during the Min-Kuo/War-Lords period in early 1900s. It also happened after the Culural Revolution, that a Communist Party member and a community leader purposedly used a bull-dozer to dig into a Tang grave to retreive the artifcats. There have been a lot more unknown cases of grave robbing during different dynasties. The most recent cases happened within the last 25 years that some villages in China broke in other villagers' ancestors graves. They retreived the buried jewelry and personal possessions of the deceased. Some even retreived the deceased's blanket and used it as front door wind curtain. Coffin woods were even retrieved and turned into furniture. There had been an advice in some rural area in China to tell people to be careful in selecting their furniture. Because if the wood furniture smell funny, it could have been made from retrieved coffin woods.

No doubt that the Chinese government may be able to stop future grave-robbings, but there is no way to reverse history and/or to stop all of these items that were dug out and were already shipped to the worldwide markets.

Some wealthy Chinese collectors had bought some masterpieces from auctions and repatriated them to China. But, only the first class national treasures were considered. There remains a problem-what if an item that has never been revealed to the world, and it has never been recorded. There is no way to prove whether it is a potential first class Chinese National Treasure or not. It is even harder to prove that it is not a fake! Added with the Privacay Act of ownership in different countries, it is out of a question of demanding any archaic or ancient jade masterpiece's return. Return to whom? And, the main concern is: Are the items real? Who will pay for the qualified appraisals?

There have been cases that some collectors bought some real nice Neolithic and archaic jades overseas, and they wanted to donate it back to some Chinese museums. Their items were rejected because these museum personels could not be accertained whether the items were authentic or not.

A lot of collectors collect because of their thinking of preserving the art when they see them. Most of them are out of their passion to collect, and with the desire to learn. Of course possession of the art can bring lots of joy, and there are some who may want to make some money of what they invest their savings into. I don't see anything wrong with that! These people may be doing the art world a favor by buying and saving the items. What if no one realize the artifact and it sits in a market stall, and everybody thinks of it as a fake and never take good care of it?

Just my thought!

Regards,

Randy Li

Dear Mehmet / Gman

I'm sorry for calling that name for making sample out of it.

About bad karma, I'm Thai buddhist, what our Lord Buddha said was "bad karma will have result to your life (present life as a living, and as the demon in hell),and the next life, that's why people were born different in social status, appearance, health..etc.. Nobody can be released from bad karma, and it can not be forgiven. It's an action and reaction, a simple theory. The only way to ease bad karma is to do good karma.

Bad karma will come back to you in any form of sufferrings, like; sickness, accidentail injury, financial difficaulty, loss of property, robbery, theft, murder, death...etc not only to you but the whole family.

That what i was told.
---------------------------

Be good, be honest, and tell no lie.

Anita Mui

CORRECTION:

---------------------------
Dear All

One of the members seriously asked me to change the Chinese man hair style to the correct Han dynasty.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear All

Below is an excuse from the fake jade seller.

"The rhyton shown above is one of a pair that were on exhibition at the Asia International Art and Antiques Fair, held at the World Expo Site in Hong Kong from May 28th to June 2nd, 2006. Included in this exhibition were jades from our collection, dating from Neolithic to Qing. They were vetted by �experts� from around the world before being accepted for exhibition. Exhibitors included all the big names, i.e. Poly Musem, Chait, Bonham, Keverne, etc., etc."
-----------------------------
Dear T&T collection

I was there and have seen none of your valuable junks, and that fair is not only "authentic" antique, any new asian art factory products can be joined there. New jade carving companies, Chinese furniture companies copied from the old furniture, new bronze copied ancient bronze factory..etc...."ANYTHING ABOUT ASIAN ART"

If you have money to rent the booth, nobody care they are real or fake, they care only the fair management can sell expensive space for your little booth.

It's Asia International Art and Antiques Fair, not authenticity fair, no experts will waste their time to filter your treasure.

Nobody is so dumb to understand that all products in Asia International Art and Antiques Fair are authentic.

FYI

Anita Mui

P.S. It's so sad to hear that 2 yrs gone by, those horns still in your trash can.

RE:Asia International Arts & Antique Fair 2006 Date: May 26-29, 2006 Venue: AsiaWorld-Expo

To T&T bad fake jade seller

Pls do not lie, I can catch you red handed with that joke. As per your excuse that the 2 jade Rytons were in Asia International Arts & Antique Fair 2006. I think you have memory loss, the date of the expo was May 26-29, 2006 not May 28th to June 2nd, 2006.

May I ask?

1)Any prove? pictures?

2)what name you used for the booth, I have 2006 expo floor plan, brochure and leaflet with me, and there was no Skylink factory booth as well as any antiques booth from Australia.

3)If you were there as "fake" but had excused as "contemporary art". Your rytons might be there. Here we go again! can not prove their authenticity.

"Inside our hall, we have 2 sections, one is for antiquities and the other one is for Contemporary Arts . You can probably place your pieces inside the contemporary arts section. � the purple dotted line.section." said the expo organizer(see email below).

4)The people who attended that fair are not dumb, if I see your junks in the antique section, I will inform the commitee to throw you out immedietly, but I did not see any fakes sell as antique at real antique section there.


5)The professional vetting committee will not judge your junk before the fair started by sending pictures to them, they will vet at the fair...FYI

Looking forward to hearing your reply asap.

Have fun
Anita Mui

I agree totally with Anita about these fakes. Thanks for warning us. Regards, Larry

Dear Jade pal

This is what T&T has replied:-

"I wasn't there personally, but if you had seen the stand you wouldn't have missed the large Liangzhu cong and bi, and the Qing dragon plate that Ms. Mui ran into the ground, among other special jades."

----------------------

Dear T&T

So? what is the booth name?

Still hadn't seen your plate and Liangzhu Tsung in the expo..If I happended to see that plate I would remember 'til the day I die.

You said you showed your collections from Neolithic to the Qing there. The most important and expensive expo in the world...but you weren't there and couldn't remember the name of the booth? If i were you i would seriously beg someone to take photos as the credit to the T&T collection and/or make a tattoo on my forehead as the life-time honor.

Your nose is getting longer, Pinocchio. The whole world is watching.

Have fun
Anita Mui

P.S. Those of my jades are not looking like yours, it doesn't mean that they are fake, but all of yours are.

Quote Joe at Chicochai:
"I just saw gman's "outrage" at the whole drinking vessel angle. You people are just the most common literal-minded dunces imagineable. Trish was ridiculing Mui even taking the time to point out that it wasn't a drinking vessel, something that is obvious to a five year simply because of the openwork carving. My goodness you people are JUST PLAIN STUPID! There is nothing else to say. OK, where are my manners; thanks "gman" for the brilliant suggestion that it might be a flower vase. We'll have to present that to some ambitious grad student to do a thesis on. You're a moron gman. How do you like Mui's bucktoothed coolie you hypocritic polecat?"

Joe, in answer to your question, no I did not appreciate the caricature of the Chinese coolie.

However, just as with the Kharma statement, having you guarding the gate of good taste is the same as having the wolf guard the chicken-coop.

Your pretended interest in art, and jade are only the stage from which you perform your insultant performance art.
Beyond that, you contribute very little to the forum at Chicochai, and I think it is most likely that the members who (are forced to) agree with you are suffering from some form of Stockholm syndrome.

You have infected the other members on both sides and turned them all into smart-alecky cynics unable to give or take opinions or criticisms without having someone (usually you), jump in to make sure that the two sides remain separated.

There will be no forgiving or forgetting done on your watch.

Apart from my participation here at AAF (most of which is insignificant), I am a member of the public, for which the Chicochai forum was created to discuss all issues relevant to jade artifacts.

Because of your interference there is very little discussion occuring in that forum.

That is NOT to say you are the only offender, it is to say that because of YOU, almost every post is reactionary to your interference, or is a derivative of your interference.

And all of your comments about the Asia International Art and Antiques Fair seem un-informed to say the least.
Perhaps if you read the title of the event slowly it will at some point make sense to you that all of the items exhibited are not necessarily antiques.

As for your other statement synically asking me if I was invited to aunthenticate the objects at the exhibition, I will answer that the same way as you responded to my saying you don't believe God exists.
I never said I wasn't invited to to authenticate the items at that exhibition.
Whether I was or or not is a moot point since I was working elsewhere in Asia at the time of the show.
See, I can play your assinine game of making statements which cannot be proven nor disproven.

Beyond that, you can rant all you want because the bottom line is while you think you are a worthy adversary, you are not. You are a disease.

A canker sore on the tongue of free speech.
********************************************

As for the other members at Chicochai:

As a member of the public for which the Chicochai forum was intended to serve, who has read back through the archives, and seen the interactions and disagreements between opposing sides and also among those on the same sides, how's about getting back to discussing jade artifacts once in awhile instead of simply disagreeing with each other out of hand?

Opinions are like noses, everyone has their own.
If you disagree, simply say so and give some reasonable explanation for your opinion. If you are disagreed with, give some reasonable explanation backing your opinion.

Is it a discussion forum?
Or is it an agreement/insult forum?

At this time, although they both have their sworn enemies to contend with, the two members with the initial "R", are the only regular contributors capable of administering sound reasononing as the antidote to the epidemic cynicism which is rampant among the few current surviving members from the once well populated membership.

As one of the members wisely pointed out to me, it would be a mistake to "break people down into cliques and clans"

I think it is equally a mistake for everyone to make partisan statements, or to say that every piece in someone's collection is authentic because they/we/I say so, or that every piece is a fake because they/we/I say so.

To all Chicochai members (with the exception of Joe who is a lost cause):
Start thinking about how you are presenting yourselves to the public, and let go of your vendettas and the relentless cynicism.

It is OK to disagree.

It is OK to have different opinions and ideas, even if at some times they seem outlandish.

It is OK to look hard at the theories of others, they may be wrong, but some part of what they theorize may lead you to something you did not see before.

Teach, learn, grow as a community.

Note to T&T:
Though I don't see your collection as all being fakes, as with any antiquities which are without provenance, each piece must be looked at as a separate object, and judged by its separate merits.
In order for the Chicochai members, and the public in general to study/admire the photos you have posted to the Chicochai forum over the years, I have posted to Webshots part three of the collection which so far reaches back to February 2002.

With a collection as varied and colossal as yours, I understand that to pay for separate universally acceptable appraisals for each piece would not only be prohibitively expensive, but could take decades to accomplish.

I also understand that in lieu of that extreme, your studies of the surface alterations seem like a logical interim strategy, and that you count yourselves fortunate to have academic experts like Dr.Cook who are also fascinated by the possibilities that the altered surfaces may provide.

If I may be allowed to paraphrase what he has said:
As with determining the age of anything else, the only way that the issue of determining the age of a carved artefact will be worked out is to develop an objective, scientifically-based method (or methods) that does not rely on the subjective opinions of people.

"T", as a member of the public who visits the Chicochai forum in order to learn more about this scientific approach, I would appreciate your participation in making Chicochai a more friendly place for scientists and scholars to visit and participate in, instead of allowing some members to disrupt the discussions by over-zealously protecting your interests.
Please, just ask them to stop.

As for those who oppose the T&T collection and their theories, please remember that they have put their money where their mouth is, so try to keep the same open thought process which science uses to solve problems.

While you may have smaller collections, you have also put your money where your mouth is, so remember that by treating each other with respect, it is possible to someday have meaningful discussions which may lead to better understanding of the many facets of jade collecting, and procedures for determining the age of carved jade artifacts.

That is unless you are like Joe, and are only seeking to be disruptive.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Cheers
Gman

URL Title :Trish\'s Jades part III

Dear Gman

Bravo! May I salute you?

Thanks

---------------------------------

To Joe
Below is what you wrote:-
�I think this thread is very important in that it deflates the empty mockery that Trish's jades are rejected by all except a few of us here. I have read recent Mui lies that this exhibition was full of fakes for the decorative market. This is of course ridiculous to anyone who knows of such art shows on more than just their own jealous opinions. First of all major auction houses would never participate in a mixed show or a show without some rigourous standards of acceptance for pieces. It would simply cheapen the show. There are decorative shows for replicas and there are antique and antiquities shows. Again we are speaking to jealous children.

130 booths is not large 13 rows of ten, nothing to get lost in. I'm sure that there was a group of people looking over the objects in their particular fields and coming to an agreement. Since Trish has said that she and Tony didn't personally attend then the scoffers should put on their extra-strength thinking caps and figure out that the booth was one of a well-known auction house. OK? That should be enough for them to chew on for a while. I know how disappointing it is that they may be forced to stop the third-rate google based research assaults but hey, c'est la vie! Life does not remain frozen in the same shoddy google images that John C keeps shoving in everyone's face; believe it or not, there are serious people out there that understand what they are looking at, unfortunately we are stuck here with three of the most close-minded fanatics one could ever encounter in John C, Bill, and Diasai and of course the boo birds at aaf who have nothing better to talk about than our every word.�
--------------------------------
Below is my reply:-

Grow up! It doesn�t mean that Pinocchio said it was there! it was there!, means it was there and do not know what booth, search it yourself!...without any prove, that speech is meaningless.
About �anything must be antique�, Please read my email from the organizer carefully, you may learn to �say what you know�. Human do not bark, they speak, and they think before speaking.
--------------------------------
To Pinocchio
Below is what you wrote:-
�If Mike Allen and the Mui woman were at the 2006 exhibition as they both claim, and supposedly interested in archaic jade, how could they possibly miss seeing a Liangzhu cong that was approximately 36" tall? The Poly Museum didn't!
--------------------------------------
Below is my reply:-
You hereby mean Poly Museum Beijing? It ties up with Chinese Military. To export, to sell Chinese antique are prohibited. They were in the expo, just for tourist information. If they have a big 3 feet tall (actually it is not big, you have lot of 3-4 meters fake Liangzhu T�sung made of low quality stone in your warehouse) Liangzhu T�sung, it absolutely not belongs to you and/or Poly Museum have intention, and prohibited to sell to anyone.

*I, 5 of my friends, my husband, and Mike saw none of Lianzhu T'sung at Poly Museum, Poly Art Museum, Polytechnic booth....whatever..no see.*

Again ! Do you have any documentation of the Poly Museum's assessment? Or did they not "officially" assess it?

And stop post nonsense reply, and assume that people are dumb, do not catch you red handed on what silly stories you are making up.

Below is 2007 Poly Museum booth, in 2006 is very much the same, just information desk at the front, no antique display.

Your nose is getting longer again, Pinocchio.

Rest in peace.
Anita Mui

CORRECTION:-

Liangzhu T'sung in my early posts, I hereby correct it to Liangzhu cong.

Sorry for misunderstanding.

Anita Mui

Dear T&T

You first said that "2 ryton cups, included in this exhibition were jades from our collection, dating from Neolithic to Qing."(I assumed that at least + 100 pieces)

Why reduced to only 3 pieces:-1)Lianzhu cong, 2)bi and 3)Qing plate? where are the rest, ryton cups and other Neolithic to the Qing collection? where? stolen? misplaced? vetted?

As I understand, you are now making up a story that you have only one 36 inches Liangzhu cong left to be shown there, which belonged to Poly Museum??? how can it be shipped to Brisbane? Poly Museum will be executed by the China Culrural Relics Law!

Keep flipping your tongue Pinocchio?


Have fun

Anita Mui

P.S. Joe pls get a "life", I beg of you.

Dear Pinocchio

Pls do not be a sore loser.

Your beloved forum rule said:-

This message board is not responsible for any content posted below.

�Not be responsible, not own anything posted there, free forum�

It�s a public forum, not your own website, not your own place, means no copyright, just like you are on the street and runing naked for public to see, if you do not like it, pls do not show.

And I�m detecting the fakes which had been lied to be sold as genuine, I have full supporting evidence , team work, time and money, and I am willing to go to the court (any court) you want.

And how many time you abused China Cultural Relics Bureau, Mao Zhedong, all museums in China calling them displaying fake jades. Crysties, Bohan, Sacker, Soltheby,Jessica Rawson, Prof.Sarah M. Nelson ,Janet Child Johnson, Prof.Gou, Throckmorton, Freer Gallery, British Museum, Victoria and Albert Museum, MET Museum you calling them �no knowledge of identifying chinese archaic jade, and display fakes�. ASIAN Art Forum, Chinahistory Forum, Allan Antique, Bernstien Antique, eBay sellers, TJR�etc�all from your fat mouth Pinocchio.

Have fun

Anita Mui

Quote Joe,
"Gman, you are a real Dr.Jeckyl. We're not stupid like the people you support. Your portrait of me holds no validity being that the sane members see past that to the real problem here :John C, Bill and Diasai and of course Mui and cloying little liars and flatterers like you. They too tried to use my language as an excuse for their anti-art savagery, I understand that you believe them, real art lovers and may I say real people don't."

Yes Joe,
Keep on keeping on as if the Chicochai forum is only viewable to members only, and that the readers who are not members will not see the truth about you after a simple forum search of the search phrase "Joe".
And the people I support are the members of Chicochai who are reasonble people willing to bury the ax, regardless of which dynasty it represents.(pun intended)

Quote Joe:
"Given your disgusting recent attempt to flatter Trish(aaf "Shang axe found in Brisbane 2-12) I simply ask people to read your first post that is reposted here and they'll know all there is to know about you, and see the stunning smarminess of your most recent stinkjob in comparison. Please don't try to tell us Christ changed your heart on all but me."

I think my posts are consistant with my outlook on the situation Joe. I find the looting of graves morally disturbing. I find that the loss of valuable data to the archaeologists, the anthropologists, and to historians is as saddening as when the Spanish melted down all of the Aztec, Mayan, and Incan artifacts, and destroyed their codices.
My feelings aside, and giving T&T the benefit of the doubt does not make every piece in their collection authentic, and whatever means they may be able to sponsor by working with academics to ascertain authenticity of their collection may end up being something good to come from all of the bad. Of course all of the above only pertains to any pieces which are authentic.
As regards any reproductions in their collection, only T&T have been harmed. Unless they purchased the pieces for their intrinsic value as works of art, which they surely would be without a doubt.

As for you mocking me by using Christ's name in vein, as more cannon fodder for your insultant performance art, you reveal a lot about yourself in such statements.

Quote Joe:
"Have you heard this: "The Devil will come quoting scripture." For the literal-minded that means, liars and flatterers speak nice words in order to decieve and hurt. No decent person would ever trust you, and please don't try to speak for the "world" that is watching. You really are a pompous yammering jackanape of epic proportions."

I dare say Joe that you exhibit many of the qualities which are traditionally attributed to Satan, and yes Satan is well versed in the scriptures. However, I see no one but you attempting to quote scriptures so perhaps it is as you said.
After habitually terrorizing the Chicochai members who dare to oppose what he terms as the "forum jades", Joe's latest plan to silence them is to have the moderator remove himself and the three members he has deemed as enemies of the state, in order to allow the remaining members to have a discussion group which has been freed of any doubters, or mavericks who may have the gall to have their own opinions.
This sounds like another terrorist tactic where the suicide bomber takes out the enemy along with with himself.
As I said before Joe, you see yourself as a worthy adversary, but you are nothing but a troublemaker who brings very little to the table which advances any discussions, and instead you jump around lighting fires like a serial arsonist on a windy day.
I have seen you try to curb your foul manner in the past, but I don't think you are cut out to be a participant in a civilized forum, you just don't understand what being civil means, that's all.
So go ahead and pull out your insult thesaurus and consult it for the proper response to what I have written, and email your hostages and give them their marching orders for the day to make sure none of them jump ship.
I again put forth the question to all Chicochai members:
Do you really want to be like Joe?

To her credit, "T" has begun a thread asking others to look at what each member can do to control their own behavior. I think this is a positive start towards peace. I hope that members on all sides of the discussion will begin taking baby steps towards friendly discussions, friendly agreements, and friendly disagreements, shedding their thin skins and taking large steps away from the propensity to belittle and insult each other as they have been taught to do by he who lives in perpetual denial of his wrongdoings.

Note to "T":
If you would prefer not to have photos of your collection you have posted at Chicochai up at Webshots, just say so and they will be removed.

Cheers
Gman

Dear Pinocchio

Your people seemed to forgive and forget of what you have lied about Poly Museum, and nobody dare to talk about it, then old man turned his blind eyes to guarantee your Qianlong jade kept in Qing refusal center as authentic..what a team!

I saw that you cut my jade picture in half, and posted it in your beloved forum..why? afraid That I was right? Once "the one who know it all!" lost her face when she said "as for my years of experience, I am 100% sure that the Jue of Ms.Mui is serpentine. Then it was proved to be mutton fat white nephrite..

Below is a full picture that you cut in half. My jades has sharp cuts of Han, but none of your serpentine (selling as jade) Han pieces have.

Pls do not forget that selling fakes as antique to the naive collectors, karma will come back to hit you hard.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Anita,

Who is the old man you talked about? Every person has one's own right to express oneself in art appreciation in a public forum. You also have the right to believe and not to beleive! The art forums are for people to discuss about arts, and not for some people's use for personal attacks. You no doubt can use the pictures of others without their consent, and you can critcize any item. But, when you start critizing other people's characters and personalities instead what they own, you may need to be careful not to get into a libel suit.

What is you motivation to cut down on some people? Just because they own too many pieces of jades that you don't believe???

A proper learning attitude should be both way - to check what if the item is a fake, and what if the item is real. If you only go for one way, you 'll never be 100% accurate in authenticating anything!

Just my thought! (=:

Randy Li

Dear Randy

It was you actually. If you think that any emperors of the Qing Dynasty would carve jade for 3 feet flower pot (have never seen before in my life) with many bad workmanship seal marks plus chicken scratch poems on the pieces with language error are authentic with supurb material, I would say that there is something behind that.

Why anybody can find the similar items at skylink and Yuekting HK? Are they Qinglong's factory for 9 generations?

As for Pinocchio's pictures, they have no owner, Chico is not responsible for anything posted there, means "no copyright". Like you throw rubbish on the street, everybody who can make use of it can pick it up or clean it up for the sake of community.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Anita,

It seems to be your personal opinion! My personal opinion is that there have been many more jade art made for the commoners than the emperors.

Qing people were known for reproducing ancient art.

No one made any claim that what were posted came from the imperial jade shop!

We should evaluate jade item by item without looking at who owns it, and how many more like that outside.

Randy Li

Dear Randy

you said:-
What is your motivation to cut down on some people? Just because they own too many pieces of jades that you don't believe???

My reply:-
Just because they are selling fakes as genuine supported by unknown making up Chinese legends from you, undocumented unofficially provenance as well as uncertified scientific theories from Taiwanina and paid geologist.

Pls do not hurt innocent people who happend to be lured to spend their hard earn money for the hope that those things will worth something in the future, and you are part of this.

AWARE collectors with basic instinct and common senses will know those are fakes, newly made from the stone carving factory, but you don't.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Anita,

As a seasoned collector and treasure hunter for over 40 years, and I did my homework more than most people. I can tell you that I have no personal agenda, nor I have any business relationship with anyone in the Chicochai forum. I just evaluate jades piece by piece carefully. I just look at the jades deeper than you without looking at who owns it and how many are out there because these factors would result in biased conclusions to my own findings.

I won't cut any item down without thoroughly examining it!

Randy Li

Dear Randy

Qing Dynasty 1644-1911 (267 years)

Those pieces mostly come with imperial reign marks, imperial five claws dragon, pheonix, and that kind of stone and craftmanship qualities are not of Qing art. And only Imperail workshop have right to carve Imperial reign marks on jade. It was in The Hall of Mental Cultivation (Yang Xin Dian)manufacturing all the necessities for royal use during the Kangxi reign to later period.

Eventhough, you said they were buried in the time of turmoil, that time were not over 120 yrs, but have whitenning and lumps of crystal which should take at least 1000 of yrs. They buried near public sewage?

Why they hid those ugly pieces but let thousands of supurb work of art burned at the Yuan Ming Yuan and left thousands of thousands jades in the Forbidden City and Imperial Tombs for KMT to loot.

-------------------------
As for those junks, the signature of workmanship and stone have the same skill like all the period of jades that Pinocchio stocked in her warehouse.



Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Anita,

It has been known that the major reproduction of jades were made in Qing Dynasty. There were reproduction of archaic items, items of previous Qing Emperors and even current Emperors, and replica of imperial ware in porcelain and almost all Qing artifacts. Why not jades? Can anyone prove that no private reproduction of jades were produced in Qing time by only reading and researching? No! The objects are posted there, and the best way to varify them is to study the items' Gu, Gong, Si, and Di rather than arguing endlessly with tons of internet research!!!

Heavily weathered Qing jades are something new to all of us! My first thought of it was that archaic jade materials were used to carve these jades, and that archaic materials were more volatile than newly-mined jades. But, I recently discovered that the unsual phenonemon also happened to the jade art that were made with the newly-mined jades at Qing time. I now realize that many of these Qing jades that have a "weathered" look were purposedly done with their unigue polishing techniques.

Ask yourself, if you want to make a Qing jade replica, do you want to make it exactly like the shiny looking museum items of Qing jades? Why would any Qing jade faker screw up one's own production by defacing his/her production to make them different than musuem jades.

The Qing jades that were posted are in fact made of fine grade green nephrite materials. The jade surface of the items that have a weathered look actually could take high polish, as you can see that many area of these so-called "weathered" Qing jades were highly-polished, at the same time they show mild alterations and even mild low-relief of raised crystals on some area. Yet, the highly polished area were free of alterations and raised crystals! I now believe that the polishing was purposedly done to leave some area less polished and/or polished with a larger grit of polish agent to add the weathered accent to the jades.

I hope that you and any one who wants to be a skeptic to truly study the items before labelling them fakes. Ask yourself both ways what if they are real, and what if they are fake! You may be missing a lot if you only go for one way!

I do not have an agenda, and I do not sell for anyone. I don't even sell! I also know the owners of these posted Qing jades are not sellers. They are serious collectors, and they are just like many other collectors of other arts who are doing the art world a favor of saving some of the art items that very few people truly recognize. In fact, many of the collectors have saved a lot of items by buying and keeping them. The world greatest collections of Oracle Bones were built by purchasing by their dedicated owners. Without such people buying and saving the Oracle Bones, most would have been gound into powder for Chinese medicine.

I read of a case that during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960's up to the early 1970's. Hundreds of large size Zhang Qui tablet from a specific Culture were ordered to cut into small pieces and turned into jade replica for export in China. What had happened to the art world?


Have fun in your research!

Randy Li

I agree with Randy that archaic design was replicated in qing jade, however I also agree with Anita that the pieces she posted- the rython and axe are cheap serpentine fakes, that one can purchase cheaply in tourist art shops in Hong Kong. In the Ching dynasty they didn'thave the technology or chemicals to raise cystals or to etch the serpentine. Such things you will never see in museums like the Palace museum in Beijing or Taipei. They are the stuff you see in the Jade factory in Beijing or the art shop in HongKong. What upsets me most is if such pieces are sold as authentic and when you want to sell it at auction or at a reputable antique shop the expert will simply shake their head and say you have been conned. Once I bought a piece like this and the only way to get the money back was with the help of a lawywer. If you bought such a piece at a unscupulous auction chances are you can never get your money back. Be very careful when buying expensive jade pieces.

Dear Randy

I believe you know in your heart that Gu, Gong, Si, and Di of those are not correct.

Why they do not make them shiny like museum pieces? Because your people like to buy dirts on the pieces, and only dirts can prove authenticity. And your people best excuse is "museum jades are polished, and recraved!" Those words can be sold to people who collect dirts. If these collection are shiny, it will against the whole Pinocchio's collection. She will not make her nose getting longer by swollow her own word again & again.

Your excuse about using ancient materials, I think it is not true:-

1)Recraving archaic material the whitening on the surface will be gone by the polishing and craving process. It's on the surface, once removed will never come back for thousands of years.

2)Recraving from archaic jades, the lumps of crystal (if any) will never grow back after polishing. Again, for thousands of years, why those pieces have them all?
-----------------------------
You said:-
"the polishing was purposedly done to leave some area less polished and/or polished with a larger grit of polish agent to add the weathered accent to the jades"

My reply:-

I do not think that the process you said does exist.

Qing jades are utmost beautiful craftmanship and supurb material. Those pieces were not re-craved from the ancient artefacts which leave any trace back to the previous form and added up Qing taste a little bit like the trend of the period. Eventhough, they craved from the old stone, they will not leave any whitening, and lumps parts on the pieces to made as antique with Qing style, it doesn't make any sense to do that for the imperial taste. Those artesans would have their heads chopped off.

If you crave or recrave from old altered jades you must polish the pieces otherwise, it will leave sharp cutting and grinding marks. I do not think that kind of dragons are archaic dragons and just add a little bit details to make them looks Qing Dynasty. Those pieces must be craved from the same BC serpentine block and then treated with Pinocchio's recipe.

Those jades are dipped in acid tank after they look ancient, those pieces will be repolished and recraved until they meet Pinocchio's standard because Pinocchio can not control degree of lumps and whitening megic. You will see many craving lines had done after the lumps were raised.
------------------------
Those pieces do not worth studying, the whole collection are funny fakes designed without any knowledge of Chinese culture, imperial taste, and possible alteration.

Tell me what is 3 feet tall flower pot made of jade for? Qing Dynasty have plenty of fine porcelian, why that tree are so precious to be planted in 3 feet jade pot?

The artist's signature is the same like the whole collection craved by one man with one tool. It is a one man band, actually.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Anita,

The messages are getting too long, and I don't have the energy like Bill to write long post.(=:


"I believe you know in your heart that Gu, Gong, Si, and Di of those are not correct."

**If we are talking about the Qing jades discussing in the Chicochai.com/jadeforum, I am stilling puzzled by their interesting weathered looks. I actually want to study these surfaces further with a microscope. I believe that they were induced using special carving and polishing techniques to create an aged look. I actually read from couple old scripts many years back that archaic jade materials were salvaged and reserved and used in Qianlong's time to add an aged look to some of the jade art. Too bad that no one agrees with me on that! Most people think that the archaic materials would have been like new material, after carving and polishing they would be the same with newly-mined materials. But, they don't see that the archaic materials were more volatile and less stable than modern day newly-mined material. I truly know about this because of my study and research in this area that is definitely more than anyone! I had read a lot of books and some old scripts over the last thirty some years. too bad that there were no computers, and I did not have the time to take notes. I read as much and as fast as I could to absorb due to time constraints during my traveling. I used to travel a lot, and whereever I traveled, I searched for books and did some free quick reading. Many of the books I read were too bulky and expensive to buy and carry, and/or were off-prints(not to be sold). It has been known that during the Cultural Revolution from the 1960's up to the early 1970's, one whole discovery of a culture that had hundreds of large size Zhang(tablet) were ordered to be cut into small pieces to make archaic jade replica. Why did they use them to make archaic jade replica instead of using the newly-mined materials. Because the chum-siks(colorful mineral absroptions/permeation is already there)and there was no need to artificially enhanced the color. The surface since they are from sound-harn materials that they would have fast color change and fast Bao-Zhang reactions just like a sound harn jade. This is about the period that I stumbled into jade collecting. There used to be thousands of jades at Hua Feng Department Store at North Point, Hong Kong. That was the flagship of China's price setting on export of their articrafts.


"Why they do not make them shiny like museum pieces? Because your people like to buy dirts on the pieces, and only dirts can prove authenticity. And your people best excuse is "museum jades are polished, and recraved!" Those words can be sold to people who collect dirts. If these collection are shiny, it will against the whole Pinocchio's collection. She will not make her nose getting longer by swollow her own word again & again."


** Please do not label me as someone who buys dirts. My collection were built mainly from the 1960's to 1992. There were not so many weathered jades around. The weathered jades started to come out only after China's urbanization in the last 20 years.


"Your excuse about using ancient materials, I think it is not true:-
1)Recraving archaic material the whitening on the surface will be gone by the polishing and craving process. It's on the surface, once removed will never come back for thousands of years."


** It is not my excuse, It is my observation! I don't have to give you or anyone any excuse. Believe or not, it is up to you!

The whitening is a phenomenon that happened to any rock, archaic or new. You can create that phenomenon by soaking the rock or boil it in hot water and take it out. After cooling off, and dry up(you can wipe it dry with towel), the rock will become dehydated, and you will see whitening around the receded area. Because of the dehydration, the microporosity of the surface appears, the whitening is actually an effect from reflected light on the dehydrated surfaces.

Now that you said it yourself that some jades thousands of years old would have whitening on their surfaces. (=:


"2)Recraving from archaic jades, the lumps of crystal (if any) will never grow back after polishing. Again, for thousands of years, why those pieces have them all?"


**Once again, the low-relief raised crystals on these surfaces were mainly due to hydration that water sipped in through microfissures of the jade surface and caused some tremolite minerals to convert into a clay-like mineral that expanded and pushed some of the different crystals(could be other minerals) out of the jade surface. Naturally raised crystals and the artificially induced raised crystals are highly disguishable. An experienced collector who has learned to identify raised crystals should have no problem to identify the naturally raised crystals that are raised by hydration from the bunch of artificiall raised crystals by acids .
-----------------------------


"You said:-
"the polishing was purposedly done to leave some area less polished and/or polished with a larger grit of polish agent to add the weathered accent to the jades"
My reply:-
I do not think that the process you said does exist."


**The jades are there posted for us to study, why not look at it and study some more before jumping into a conclusion too quick!


"Qing jades are utmost beautiful craftmanship and supurb material. Those pieces were not re-craved from the ancient artefacts which leave any trace back to the previous form and added up Qing taste a little bit like the trend of the period. Eventhough, they craved from the old stone, they will not leave any whitening, and lumps parts on the pieces to made as antique with Qing style, it doesn't make any sense to do that for the imperial taste. Those artesans would have their heads chopped off.""


** Do you really think that you have already learned everything about Qing jades?

I actually had read of that archaic jade materials were used on purpose in Qing's time(especially during Qianlong's reign) many times from different old scripts many years back. Why is it so hard to believe? Even at the other forum, no one believes me! Why should I lie? If you don't know about it, that's not my problem! The record is there! Even Yang Boda had reported that archaic materials were used to add ancient flavors to the jade art because the earliest Qing Emperors were highly attracted by the ancient Chinese Culture.



"If you crave or recrave from old altered jades you must polish the pieces otherwise, it will leave sharp cutting and grinding marks. I do not think that kind of dragons are archaic dragons and just add a little bit details to make them looks Qing Dynasty. Those pieces must be craved from the same BC serpentine block and then treated with Pinocchio's recipe."

**I had seen several modern carved jades using naturally weathered skin that looked almost natural, and they really looked like Neolithic jades at Pan Jian Yuan in Beijing in 2004.

The archaic jades materials that the Qing imperial jade shop used were slabs/sheets that were retrieved, prepared and stored like a small stack of lumber. (=: Once again! No ones believes me, and the people at the other forum even ridiculed me on this. I am not a liar! I just try to share what I know. I don't have to go through this! Anyone's ignorance should not be my concern!!!! I am still unhappy about it! From now on, I will change my attitude. I will no longer be concerned about any one's ignorance!!!!


"Those jades are dipped in acid tank after they look ancient, those pieces will be repolished and recraved until they meet Pinocchio's standard because Pinocchio can not control degree of lumps and whitening megic. You will see many craving lines had done after the lumps were raised."


** This is only your observation on the jades and it may not be correct!

As for assumption of another person's personality. It can be highly subjective!
------------------------

"Those pieces do not worth studying, the whole collection are funny fakes designed without any knowledge of Chinese culture, imperial taste, and possible alteration."


"As an avid jade collector and gemologist with over 40 years experience, I feel that these Qing jades are interesting, and I can learn something from studying them especially on the Yin and Yang concept of carving and polishing. That is something new for me! I am very sure that the Qing jades we talked about are definitely not artificially altered with modern day methods. Look at the highly polished area that resisted the weathering. Only certain area were purposedly left with less polishing to create more microporocity that caused a whitening look by reflected light on the dehydrated surfaces.

"Tell me what is 3 feet tall flower pot made of jade for? Qing Dynasty have plenty of fine porcelian, why that tree are so precious to be planted in 3 feet jade pot?"

** Once again, your though is an only an assumption, and it may not be always right! If you are into Chinese Art. You should know that a lot of art do not make for real functions. Many were made for showing the artistic achievements of the time, for appreciation, for display, and for showing the artistic expression and Gong. I don't know which flower pots you were talking about. If they were flower pots, there should be another thin pot made of other material inside when in the jade flower pots were in use. If you talked about a jade vase, then it could be for use to hold the Peach tree with water during Chinese New Year just like Christmas trees for Christmas! I have seen smaller jade vases being used for dry plants and artificial plants.

"The artist's signature is the same like the whole collection craved by one man with one tool. It is a one man band, actually."


** I do not agree! I feel that your observation is too much generalized. No doubts that a couple of reign marks indicate that they were reproduced later then the reign. But, these jade art are good and authentic as Qing jades. I really do not agree that you label them as Canadian/California nephrite. I had sold stuff like that in the 1970's and in 1984 when I had my Oriental antiques and curios businesses. I really know the difference between these jades and the North American material.

Have fun!

Randy Li

I am curious why the type and quality of signed "Qing" artifacts discussed in this thread have never, to my knowledge, appeared in the major auction house or museum catalogs, or in important jade books. During the many years I lived in Singapore, I visited many private collections and museums and attended numerous fine Chinese art, porcelain and jade sales in Singapore and Hongkong, and never observed anything similar to the subject signed "Qing" artifacts. How is it possible that all of these pieces are of nearly identical color and weathering and have only appeared in Australia? Surely it would not be possible for one buyer to obtain the entire output of these "Qing" pieces and leave none for the thousands of treasure hunters in Asia to find.

By the way, the Sotheby's auction catalog for the March 18, 2008 sale in New York, lists some magnificent and authentic signed Qing pieces which, as in previous sales, are expected to sell for many thousands of dollars.

Dear Larry

If you paid thousands of US$, it would worth the lawyer fee, but people who bought hundreds of dollars with the hope that one day it would worth something!, I feel sympathy for them.

Dear Roger

There are many factories in Guang Dong Province produce these kind of products, made from British Culumbia nephrite / serpentine, soap stone, poor quality Chinese nephrite..etc. then they perform majic trick to make them look old. These products will be imported to HK to be sold to tourists, the local collector will not buy them. You will see these kind of products around tourist spots. Tourists will have no idea how the authentic ancient jades would look like, they buy dirts first. Things that have mud, whitening, Lumps, cinnaba, rust,stains, animal bones, fabric dipped with glue and lacqure come with jades..etc should be purchased.

That Pinocchio's products have a few sell representatives, for instance; Germany. Canada, USA, supplied by the same HK dealer.

They and the supplier had shop on eBay before, but could not make good sales because sometime the same products were on sale on eBay at the same time but different prices and sellers. It proved fakes since it have duplicates to prove the aware buyers that this was factory made.

When the products came on show on eBay at the same time, the fakers bit each other, calling each other "a fake" in Chico forum, that was fun.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Anita, the reason I took legal action against this dealer was because the object cost several thousand and he refuse to refund the money so I ask a lawyer associate of my partner to write him a letter. After that did he refunded the money. Any items that Christies or Sothebys refuse to sell is dubious or fake and worthless with no resale value and therefore not worth collecting.

I have watched with amazement as a deeply ignorant and disturbed woman is given the time of day by people who have no knowledge at all of jade in general. Her slanderous behavior appears to be condoned by some individuals. Those who criticize should look at themselves and the grounds on which they feel competent to cast an opinion on the jades being ridiculed by her on this thread.

Anita Mui made her debut on the Chicochai forum during a period I had left the forum. Her express purpose was to denigrate myself and my husband and the collection of jades, dating from the Neolithic period to the Qing dynasty, which we had accumulated over some years. She became obsessed with us and our collection. Over a short period she felt secure in that she had the attention of a few members, and proceeded to show her own collection. A very big mistake on her part as it showed too clearly that she had no clue at all on what constituted an archaic jade. As a matter of fact she does not recognize nephrite jade and it�s geological criteria. Despite this she proceeded with her campaign, relentlessly attempting to destroy our good name. Unfortunately for her there are too many people who know us and have viewed our collection personally, who could not take her accusations seriously. We must pose a threat of some sort to this unscrupulous woman whose jealousy knows no bounds. Whatever drives her finally drove her to be so personally rude to the moderator of the Chicochai forum that her membership was cancelled.

She promptly joined AAF for the sole purpose of continuing her campaign of nasty libelous statements, which seem to be enjoyed by the lower echelon of this forum, who must get some kind of cheap thrill out of agreeing with her uneducated and unsubstantiated statements. For those of you who responded positively to this woman�s senseless and ignorant assessment of the Zhou axe and the rhyton, please show me some of your jade collection so that I may see on what basis of knowledge your agreement with her is founded. She has been particularly careful to hide her collection from anyone here.

She claims that her sole purpose in all this is to save some poor souls from paying huge prices for our jades which, by the way, are not for sale to her or any of the poor souls she wants to save. She has also stated that we have a warehouse full of jades and a factory producing them. Let me state categorically that this scenario lives only in her fertile imagination. We were collecting archaic jade long before this silly woman found us on the Chicochai forum, and while she was busy trotting around the market stalls in China and Hong Kong buying the fakes in her collection.

It makes us wonder about the mentality of some people. We have a collection we enjoy, but because the size of it is beyond the imaginations of some individuals, we have become a target of a crazy woman and the few crazies who support her. It is all very confusing for us who live pretty simple lives, retired from business some years ago, just relaxing and enjoying our collection, yet there are those who want us goaled for �selling fakes�, and others who want us goaled for �grave robbing�. We cannot win!

To enlighten some here, we cannot be accused of grave robbing as we are too far along the chain of disposal of the many archaic and antique items of all varieties that find their way out of China and into the open market. There are no doubt many collectors here who have in their possession items that have made their way to their collections in one way or another, from sources they really have no idea about.

One �expert� here said, �however I also agree with Anita that the pieces she posted- the rython and axe are cheap serpentine fakes, that one can purchase cheaply in tourist art shops in Hong Kong.� I am hoping that Larry can persuade her to produce one cheap serpentine rhyton or axe similar to those shown above, and prove her point. Also, please convince her to show some good close-up pictures of her fake serpentine �Han� hexagonal pendant. She is certain it is quality nephrite jade and from the Han dynasty. Hope she has the courage of her convictions and posts the close-up shots. She is very adept at digital photography and making use of photoshop, though she claimed ignorance at first on the Chicochai forum.

I have no intention of remaining on this forum, because my interest is only in archaic and antique jade. However, I will rebut the ignorance displayed by this nasty piece of work who calls herself Anita Mui.

Trish.

Trish if you want anyone to believe you, that the jade ryhton and axe is authentic, pls get it authenticated by Sothebys or Christies or a reputable museum, not some unknown"expert".

Dear T

Welcome on board.

What ever your excuse is, your collection is a commercially joke against the reality of Chinese jade art. The whitening and growth of lumps "ARE NOT COMMONLY SEEN ON CHINESE JADE", but the whole collection have.

Did you start to collect / sell jades with whitening and lumps, the same products with the deceased Francesso Lei of Chico who introduced you to KC of Skylink? then you have jades with lumps and whitening to be sold on the net and eBay after that you were terminated from eBay (or self withdrawn as the excuse)?

Let me remind you:-
http://www.chicochai.com/jadeforum/read.php?forum=1&id=437#441

About the mood of the products, do they have the same artist�s signature of these shops?

http://www.earts.com.hk/[email protected]&password=0045

http://www.ytjade.net/Chinese/Bs_Product.asp

You can find many duplicates of your products in there. You can go to visit the warehouses by appointment, while they sell the same product at USD 50, you may sell hundreds to the unaware collectors.

I do belive that jade in the museums and private collections will not have the second pieces. After some collections were published , many of these factories will copy as fast as few minutes after the books were on the shelves with the same style, cheap material, whitening, lumps and factory-like workmanship.
----------------------------------
About Chico forum, when you were hiding, I was there for a month and disagreed with your collection and Chico collection, then your people send email to Edmund to terminate my membership, after that you came out of the hiding place immedietly, and bit me when I could not defense myself, that was a fair game and a very classy of yours.

Few of my jade show there are decoys, and fun and spin your people�s heads around, some of your members even emailed me asked me to sell some pieces to them.

Any jade that different from your suppliers and yours are calling fake! Why bother any aware collecters to show to you? You are not specialist of any kind, but an simple tricky merchant who scoff at books, and published jades from documented excavated sites. If you spent the time to actually see what genuine ancient jades look like, you would have a lot of trouble with the fact that your jades don't resemble the real thing. As collecter, you are the collecter of what is the most certainly the largest accumulation of archaic Chinese fakes ever assembled, with dismissive, naughty know-it-all attitude".

Some pictures of jades in Chinese books are sample of fake for your comparison to the genuine, not for you to copy and think that what they are talking in the books are real. Pls try to remember the word �fake� in traditional and symplified chinese.
See mercy link below:-

http://www.mandarintools.com/cgi-bin/wordlook.pl?word=fake&searchtype=chinese&where=whole&audio=on

-----------------------

About jade locality, what you know about locality since your Lianzhu and Hongshan have the same type of material, they are thousands of miles away, you know?
-------------------------
What is the excuse of Poly museum ryton and Qing plate? So Ryton is a vase? since when Han Dynasty have vase made of jade?
----------------------

I will not bother you if you sell your products as A FAKE, A COPY, A REPLICA, A PSEUDO. Many nice word can be used, pls pick one.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear T

I may not find the similar serpentine axe and ryton, but your jades speak for themselves..they are fake, so are they vase? were they at Poly Museum booth?..really..truly? any prove?

As requested, the HK tourist jade products compared to your collection.

Have fun
Anita Mui

More to come.

Have fun!

Anita Mui

Anyone that has got conned thousands by fake jade dealers,the way to get your money back is to first get it authenticated by Sothebys or Christies- you go to their website sothebys.com or christies.com and it would be under valuation and print out a form to fill and attach pictures of the object and send it to them by mail or e-mail or a government museum, than approach the dealer to explain that the item is not genuine, than if no refund is given, then contact the local government investment and security agency- e.g FBI in US, ASICS in Australia, which is linked to the police and lodge a complaint. Always keep your receipt and auction catalogues. A solicitor may be required as well. Good luck, Larry.

Author: Anita Mui,

I like these 2 pieces, any idea? The green nephrite lamb is of sping and autumn, the white nephrite curly tails fudog is later period. What do you think Randy?

Dear Randy

Are these two pieces Lao Tu Da Hong? I will run to buy them tomorrow.

I'm just a dumb housewife who shop a lot.

Thank you for sharing

Anita Mui
____________________

Dear Anita,

Please don't waste your bullets on these stuff! You actually have better luck with eBay than shopping from the above jades. Especially from the more reliable sellers who offer money back guarantee. You can't compare these items with the jades posted and discussed in the forum.
____________________

Dear Randy

OK. I haven't brought any of them, but I like those 2 pieces a lot.

Thanks
Anita Mui
____________________

Dear Anita,

You can't get Spring and Autumn small jades cheap in Hong Kong or China. As for the two jades, they are not Lao Tu Da Hung. The left one is an aggregate-type or matrix material, and is an obvious fake. The lamb has some work on it, but Iam pretty sure it is new. You actually can still get lucky on eBay, but get it only from the more reliable sellers who offer money back guarantee.
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My beloved jade pals,

Pls feel free to cast your opinions.

I'm just a dumb housewife who shops a lot.

Thank you for sharing.

Anita Mui

Larry,

Your opinion on the jades in our collection means nothing to me. You will be waiting a long time if you think I need to prove anything to you. Of course, you have made it quite clear that you see Anita Mui aka the dumb housewife as an expert. I sincerely hope you will never purchase anything unless you confer with her.

As for Sotheby�s, Roger drew my attention to the �Qing� jades they have on offer. They use their own sales as provenance � an absolute joke!

To show you how assessors at auction houses can make very big mistakes, the jade shown below is modern, but was mistaken for being produced in the Qianlong workshops when it was presented for auction. There is a preconceived idea of how Qing jades should look, and this concept is carefully nurtured by the well-known auction houses and major dealers. However, no need to take my word for it, buy up big whenever you get an opportunity to splurge at Sotheby�s or Christies.

Trish.

Some fake jade dealers keep real pieces of jade and mix them up with the junk and they usually refuse to sale the real piece of jade but will sell you the junk. Sometimes they tell you the real piece of jade is fake but actually they are keeping it for themselves as they really know it is valuable, as they do use the money made from selling fakes to buy themselves real stuff. No body needs to believe me about what is real or not but read books published by museums like jade from the imperial palace of Beijing or Taipei Palace Museum. Those jade pieces were collected in the 18th century by emperor Qianlong well before fakes were ever invented. Translucent World published by art gallery of NSW is a good book to read it shows jade from the imperial palace of Beijing. Than compare that to the fake Serpentine carvings notice the difference the real stuff looks smooth and translucent and beautiful, and the other looks frosted, dull and rough, with no grace or beauty in the carving. Also if you are still not convinced take a trip to Hong Kong go look at the Jade market and see first hand where those fakes come from. You can get a bag full with a $100 US dollars. But why keep dangerous serpentine carving which are bad for FengShui and business. A serious business person never waste their time collecting worthless junk or get conned by con men or women. If scammed a good business person will revenge with full legal force and goal the baddie. That is what a good sucessful business person will do. So prove your self if you have been scam do the right thing report it take legal action. Best regards Larry.

Trish Wilson, I don't need your advise about anyone or on jade. I know the antique jade trade well and have viewed many museum collections as well as fakes from side stalls from Hong Kong to Beijing to jade auctions in various countries-some selling fakes and some selling the real thing. I have conducted my own research from books and mediums I buy from reputable auctions and dealers as well as those inherited from my family. I conduct my business with honesty and I do not like dishonesty. Not many dealers dare sell me fakes because I have good connection with various jade and antique specialists as well as museum curators, and taking legal action or blowing whistles at scums is part of doing business. They will refund me my money. If I want to sell any of my antiques, it is easy just call up the specialist from Sothebys or Christies, they are always desperately looking for authentic work of art. I have no problems selling them through reputable auctions, which gets me a very handsome return for my investment. They trust me and I trust them. Cheers, Larry

Dear T

You said I was rude, but your disciple, Joe who use aggressively foul languages with lots of hatred will never be considered as inappropriate, why ?..Because he speaks on your behalf!

Your people even tried to have self moderate forum system to ban people who act against your collection.
-----------------------------------------------

Quote from T:-

�Unfortunately for her there are too many people who know us and have viewed our collection personally, who could not take her accusations seriously.�

My reply:-

Who?, pls name some well-known curators of Jade World...name one! The only one Chicco member who viewed your collection at your place was a gynecologist? whose work is looking at microscope searching for VD, and buying bad fake Hongshan jades from eBay with the hope that they would be genuine after seeing through the microscope lens. Then, donated eBay pieces and your pieces which he had bought from your warehouse to HK Museum, but was rejected by the HK Museum curators on the day of donation. Is that a truth or a rumor?

-------------------------
Quote from T:-

�She claims that her sole purpose in all this is to save some poor souls from paying huge prices for our jades which, by the way, are not for sale to her or any of the poor souls she wants to save.�

My reply:-

There are many poor souls for me to save, til the day I die, I will never stop to point fake, if you are still selling fake as real by misleading the naive collectors.

Pls do not flip your tongue and tell me that your things are not for sale since you have website + ex-eBay seller recorded as 'bron-from-downunder'.

Your commercial website with your email and contact detail showing there:-

http://home.scs.brisnet.org.au/~jade/

�The collection comprises a large number of pieces that have never been recorded. Visitors to Brisbane Australia, are invited to view this extensive collection of jade and bronze by appointment.�

Yes, your collection speaks a lot for itself, it's a pile of craved stones, not antiques.

Have fun

Anita Mui

Dear Anita, these are a whole bunch of acid etched serpentine you have shown us. Serpentine is related to lung cancer causing asbestos due to its sharp crystals. The dust from serpentine can cause lung cancer if inhaled. Serpentine reacts with acid and this is how they etch them with acid to make them look rugged and porous and frosted. When you add baby lotion to it the pores soak up with oil and it looks shiny and smooth and when you wash it with detergent it looks frosted again. In America and Australia there are laws safe guarding people from being scammed. Law enforcement agencies like FBI in America or ASIC in Australia can be contacted on the internet to investigate any complains regarding fraud. However you have to prove it is fake first by contacting a Museum or a reputable auction house like Sothebys or Christies to have the item appraised first. Best regards, Larry

Dear T
You said I was rude, but your beloved son, Joe who use �F� word a lot in there are not..why ?..because he stands on his mother�s side, and protects his mother�s collection?

Your people even tried to have self moderate forum system to bann people who act against your collection esp; John C, Diasai and Bill.
--------------------------
Quote from T:-

�Unfortunately for her there are too many people who know us and have viewed our collection personally, who could not take her accusations seriously.�

My reply:-

Who?, pls name some jade world renouned curator. the only one who viewed your collection at your place is David Anderson, a Psycisian who like looking at microscope, and buying cheap Hongshan jade from eBay with the hope that they would be genuince after seeing through the microscope lens. And he bought some from your collection.
---------------------------
Quote from T:-

�She claims that her sole purpose in all this is to save some poor souls from paying huge prices for our jades which, by the way, are not for sale to her or any of the poor souls she wants to save.�

My reply:-

Pls do not lie and tell me that your things are not for sale since you have website + ex-eBay seller record, and you sold Liangzhu bi disc to Chico forum members, then he paid for the specialist in USA to look at your jade, then it was proved fake, and you refused to get them back.

Your commercial website:-
http://home.scs.brisnet.org.au/~jade/


Have fun

Anita Mui
P.S. so you really believe that I�m really a dumb? I did my homework, Pinocchio.

Dear T

If you do not know black discoloration caused by mercury (shuiyin qin) on that poor little mystical animals which your piece have none of it, you may not understand, since you are an expert in your own coconut shell. It's not my duty to explain it to you.

Pls read what I posted in Chico carefully, I asked Randy for his advice. I'm not a person who "know-it-all with stubborn narrow-minded attitude". And I have never said that "I'm an expert!", but you did.

Those horned Hongshan I bought on the street at US$ 0.5 for sample of the whitening, no intention in my mind to "presume" that it is authentic. And your microscope specialist was so sure that it is real...so sad.
-----------------------

World leading auction houses have their credibility for buyers to trust what they are selling to you, and they have no intention to lie/cheat/lure/tempt/pursue but you have it all!
---------------------------------
So?....
1)Ryton cups was at Poly Museum, ha?..any prove?
2)Ryton cups are vases?
3)Your products not for sale? no commercial websit? you just wasting your time counting days you have left after retirement?really? truly?
4)Your treasure were dug up from what tomb? or Michael Jackson's neverland?

There are many evidences after evidences to prove your con. You are guilty as charged. What a shame and embarrassment!


Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear T

You sell US$ 900.- for a fake copied from Throck's book said to be real, but Throck sells US$ 20,000.- for authentic.

See the difference!

Have fun
Anita Mui

more

Have fun
Anita Mui

Dear Anita,
You make the comparison with Throckmortons jades as if you accept that one is authentic and the other is fake.
Just because a piece is published don't make the mistake of believing it is real.

Kind regards
Mehmet

Dear Mehmet

The main point is Pinocchio had copied Throckmorton's jade soon after Throckmorton put it on cover page of his book.

Pinocchio had copied without any clue of what excavated archaic jade gonna look like. Pinocchio just faxed the picture to the factory to the same worker, and dumped it in high pressurized chamber to make lumps, then dipped in the same alkaline drainpipe opener acid. All the workmanship and "looking so old" are the same as all of the products Pinocchio stocks in her warehouse.
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I do believe in creditial of Spencer Throckmorton who has been working with Gu Fang, an archaeologist from the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, on his collection, and Spencer plans to produce a catalogue with new research on the jade.
--------------------------------
This Throckmorton's Warring States to Han jade was examined by the art historian Dr.Elizabeth Childs-Johnson with articles by Chinese archaeologists, Shao Wangping, Lu Jianfang, Hang Tao and Jiang Song and scientists Dr.Frank Preusser and Frank Aon, and was put in the coverpage of her/his book ''Enduring Art of Jade Age China: Chinese Jade of Late Neolithic Through Han Periods, Volume II''.

I collect jade with the same material and tool marks like Throckmorton's. China Museums, British Museum, and reputable collections have similar material and tool marks as Throckmorton's jade.

*The most important thing to authenticate jade artefacts is tool mark of the period, but all the stones in Pinocchio's warehouse are covered with whitening and lumps to hide the tool marks.*

May I ask you?
1)Do you trust Elizabeth Childs-Johnson and China archeologists?
2)Do you trust Spencer Throckmorton?
3)Do you trust the majority of the world fine collectors?

For me...."I do!"

Have fun
Anita Mui

She answers her own questions twice, and this one takes the cake:

"Who?, pls name some well-known curators of Jade World...name one! The only one Chicco member who viewed your collection at your place was a gynecologist? whose work is looking at microscope searching for VD, and buying bad fake Hongshan jades from eBay with the hope that they would be genuine after seeing through the microscope lens. Then, donated eBay pieces and your pieces which he had bought from your warehouse to HK Museum, but was rejected by the HK Museum curators on the day of donation. Is that a truth or a rumor?"

I know David Anderson is a respected medical doctor. He is not a gynaecologist and does not look for VD through his microscope. I'm afraid the dumb housewife has him confused with her own gynaecologist.

Confusion reigns supreme!!! She wouldn't know the meaning of the word TRUTH.

Trish.

Dear Pinocchio

"Archaeology is about Facts; if you want the Truth, go next-door to the Philosophy Department!" said Indiana Jones, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989).

None of the "Fact" and the "Truth" can not be applied to your stuffs. Your craved stones can not be proved as "authentics" to any science/archeology/mineralogy/antiquity, the only one concept taht fit "one of those" is "FANTASY", where the Fairy you came from.

Have fun
Anita Mui

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