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Subject:Re: I need help identifying a hongshan jade piece.
Posted By: Bill Tue, Oct 02, 2007
Hi, Christine:
I think you may have come to the wrong place for opinions on your Hongshan piece. While there are quite a few jade experts in this forum who are experts in dynasty jades ranging from Shang dynasty to Qing dynasty, I do not believe Hongshan jades are their forte. The only member in this fourm I believe who can give you at least an honest and credible opinion will be Diasai. However even he was being ridiculed by other members in believing he could actually find an authentic Hongshan jade or he really knew anything about neolithic jades. I know by saying that I would not endear to many other forum members but I am just trying to be brutally honest.
You see, the problem is the collecting of Hongshan jades is actually quite new, less than 100 years and this is really quite a short time by the Chinese standard. Hongshan jades were never discussed prior to 1930. There are simply not that many literatures regarding this field even just 10 years ago, recently more Hongshan books have been published by Hongshan jade experts in China. A few were written by Chinese archaelogists who had actually been involved in the actual excavation of jades in Hongshan sites such as the Hongshan guru, Guo Da Shun. Unfortunately, Professor Guo would not recorgnize any Hongshan jades as authentic unless they were excavated by him or by other archaeologists endorsed by him. Many other Hongshan book writers have been collecting Hongshan jades all their lives, but many of them without any academic and archaeological trainings or credentials and therefore their opinions were frowned upon by some members in this forum. In short, we have a very ambiguous situation here:
Many western Hongshan jade collectors simply cannot obtain any first-hand knowledge on Hongshan jades from any Chinese litereatures including books, articles or Chinese web sites because they cannot read Chinese. Even if they can read Chinese many of them refuse to believe any literatures or articles written by Chinese Hongshan jade experts who were not endorsed by the Chinese government or museums. This thinking actually has some meritss because a few of the Chinese Hongshan jade experts who lack official trainings may post theories instead of facts regarding Hongshan jades. However, due to such lack of first-hand references, they have to rely on second-hand references found in English literatures. Many of these second-hand literatures were not endorsed by either the Chinese government or their museums and many times the information or Hongshan pieces shown by them were not genuine and can be misleading. Yet it is this type of literatures many western Hongshan jade experts based their opinions on how they are authenticating Hongshan jade pieces. Almost every serious Chinese jade collector knows about the jade terminologies such as "Se Jian" (color stains or color diffusion) or "Bao Jiang" (the gel-like luster found on archaic jade pieces as a result of deposit of sweat or oil from human contacts with the jade piece) because these are two extremely important criteria used by them to identify any archaic jade piece. Yet many western jade collectors have never heard of such terms and when it was brought up by me for discussion, I was accused one of the terms was an invention of another Chinese jade pal and myself.
However, even after saying this I do not mean there are no real Hongshan jade experts outside China. Yes, I believe there are a few but they are the one who always keep an open mind and who obtain their Hongshan knowledge first-handed by studying all Hongshan literatures including the Chinese one. Thormorton may be one of the few places outside China I believe you may find some genuine Hongshan jades but they are not cheap. You simply cannot find too many Hongshan jades in any auctions held by famous auction houses such as Sotheybys or even inside China. The last time a Hongshan jade broke the auction record is a few years ago in one of the auction in China. Now why is that? It is because even Chinese Hongshan jade experts can be fooled into autenticating high quality fakes as authentic Hongshan jades. Therefore nowadays, many large auction house shum away for listing any Hongshan items. They simply do not have the expertise or know how in authenticating them with 100% accuracy. Another example, even famous museum can be fooled. Not too long ago, the National Palace Museum in Taiwan had acquired several "authenitc" Hongshan jade pieces and they were displayed in the museum. They were so bad that many experience Taiwan Hongshan collectors told the museum that they were fake but the museum curators simply refused to listen since they were the experts and therefore could not make such errors. To make a story short, the museum finally had to admit they were indeed fakes and had to cancel the exhibition. Therefore I believe the biggest problem is not even whether you can find an authentic Hongshan jade during your life time or not. You may excavate a real piece yourself but unless you can document it with an official Chinese source you would not be able to convince too many people that your piece is truly authentic even you know for sure that it is real because you dig it up yourself.
Does that mean there is no hope? Yes, I believe there is hope, but you will have to study and study and knowing that you may never be able to find an authentic piece in your life time no matter how hard you study. The more you know about Hongshan jades the more frustrated you will become because you know the chance of finding a genuine Hongshan piece in your life may be similar to winning a lottery.
Now, sorry for side tracking.
Without any disrespect, I believe those questions brought to you by another esteemed member in this forum is kind of crazy. The are good is they are for an experience Hongshan jade collector. If you already know the answers all these questions, why would you need to post this piece in this forum for the opinions of the "experts"? (*By the way, I believe you may have better luck in posting your piece in the Chichochai forum, they actually have quite a few very serious and knowledgeable Hongshan jade collectors there. But be prepared, sometimes they can be quite brutal too.)
I do not believe where you purchased this piece has anythig to do with its authenticity. Some forum members automatically labeled all Hongshan jades listed on ebay as fakes. While the price paid for a Hongshan jade may have something to do with its authenticity because nobody will knowingly sell a genuine Hongshan piece for peanuts. However, it does not mean if you pay a fortune for a Hongshan piece it will guarantee its authenticity. Such thinking is both faulty and illogical. One of the top Hongshan jade experts, Mr. Sun Shoudao, actually believed his friend could still find 5 -6 pieces of authentic Hongshan jade pieces each year in the Pan Jia Yan (an antique market opened on weekends) in BeiJing, China. There is a new book written by him and another author fixed to come out, you can purchase it from www.paragonbooks.com
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Hongshan wenhua yuqi xinpin xinjian
The Discovery of New Type of Hongshan Culture Jade Carvings
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Sun, Shoudao & Liu, Shujuan
9.25" x 12", 331 pp., 325 color plates, text in Chinese and English, cloth, Changchun, 2007.
I do not know Mr. Sun personally therefore I have nothing to gain by promoting his book but he is one of the top Hongshan jade experts in China and is well respected.
If you know how to "compare your piece with any with the authenticated examples as published and vetted by reputable sources", you will not need to post this piece here.
How do you know it is jade? Of course it is jade. Your piece is made of one of the high quality dark green nephrite typical of the Manassa (River) nephrite jade found in making Hongshan jades. After testing and analyzing over 1,000 pieces of jades, I can tell by just glancing its picture to tell it is made of good nephrite with at least a S.G. of 2.95 or higher with a hardness probably between 5.5 to 6.
There are many of this type of orange-green nephrite peebles found around Anshan, Liaoning, especially in the ancient Hongshan era. I believe you can still find them but not in any large quantity.
Your piece was made of good nephrite. The orange color found on its head seems to be natural texture of the jade itself and not a true color diffusion. However, I cannot tell the orange color diffusion found at its tail end. It looks it can be true "Se Jin" (Sik Chum), look closely and if you can see a crack line. If there is one, then you can see the color stain will start seeping through the crack line and then gradually diffused (spread) deep into the jade piece. This will be an indication of the age of the jade piece. One good things about your piece is that you do not see any white stuff (or patina) covered up the whole piece or the grooves/carving lines (to prevent you from looking at the modern tool marks). I do not know what the correct name of your piece. It seems to have a cicada body but with a head of ? I cannot remember I have ever seen any genuine pieces resemble yours. I have to go home and check all my Hongshan books first.
However, I like the shape of its eyes, it is the typical "willow leaf" shape eyes found in many authentic Hongshan pieces. I do not like its horns (or whatever you call them), because they just do not look right. Its luster is only average and I cannot detect any bao-jiang on its surface (like a gel-like layer wrapped around the piece). I do not know if it is due to the pictures. Normally, one of the most vital characteristic of real Hongshan jades is its luster because at that time they use animal pelt and grease to acheive superb luster. This kind of polishing skill is no longer avialbale this day. Therefore, many genuine Hongshan pieces will shine like a "gem" among all other lesser pieces. I cannot see the carvings on your piece from your pictures, please examine them closely and see if you can detect any modern tool marks (such as many small horizontal line inside their grooves)
Many times you will see long and even lines on Hongshan pieces from the top to its bottom, this is typical of many New Stone Age jade carvings. It is hard to describe it here. Furthermore, look inside its two holes and examine its threads, if they are all even and complete, then it may be made modern. If part of the thread appear to be missing and the distance between thread lines are uneven or you may see luster inside the holes, then it is possible due to carving/drilling with ancient tools.
Unless I can personally examine your piece and get a better picture. I really do not believe your piece is an authentic Hongshan piece, based on my very limited experience. I believe it is a better made copy that was made of real nephrite in a much latter date. However, I am a novice myself I believe Diasai or other experienced jade experts may be able to give you a more accurate opinions.
The reason I am saying that is because this type of nephrite (dark green mixed with orange)was still available for a long time after the Hongshan era and therefore copies can still be made. In my limited experience, I found that any Hongshan jade pieces that are made of truly unique and extinct jade materials have the best chances of being authentic because fakers simply cannot get hold of such materials to made fakes. The materials I am talking about will be a celadon (light green) high-quality nephrite that has a S.G. of 3.10 or higher and a hardness of 6.5 or higher. At first glance, such material resembles serpentine and many colletors will be fooled by its look and call it serpentine. However, if you take a closer look at it, its luster will be shinning like Christmas lights and you will be blinded by its luster. A modern serpentine piece simply cannot have this type of luster because it is simply too soft (that is why jadeite always seems to have brigher luster than nephrite because jadeite is much harder than nephrite). If you can find new stone age polishing and carving on such piece, accompanied with signs of "aging", then no matter what other people said, you have a great piece. I also believe there are genuine Hongshan pieces made of shinning yellow jade material (I cannot confirm whether it is serpentine or nephrite; if it is nephrite, bright or pale yellow with superb luster, then it has to be a real piece). Same may apply to any Hongshan piece that were made of Hetian jade (top quality white nephrite), however I have never seen one and Hetian jade is still available in China therefore high quality fakes can still be made.
Please excuse my rambling but I believe you piece deserves a better treatment than being bombarded with so many tedious questions.
Thanks.
Bill
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