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Subject:Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sun, Nov 20, 2005 Hi here is a Jiaqing bowl or cup that I got at a steal of a price. I am pretty sure it is authentic--everything fits from enamels, foot rim to shape and mark. It has the graviata or scrafitto(i get them mixed up) ground which is hard to see in pictures. 6 inches in diameter 2.75 inches high. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Daniel Sun, Nov 20, 2005 The quality of the pics is not sufficient for a precise examination. (no footrim, no close-ups of the enamels, glaze, interior) But, my personal opinion is later Qing/Early Republic Period. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sun, Nov 20, 2005 I havent a question on the date--it is a Jiaqing piece --I just have questions on the history of this hoof cup. I apologize for the pictures and will get better ones posted asap but it a match to a cup that is in Vermeer Griggs Gallery www.teadust under the famille rose category. I was wondering what they used them for such as wine water etc. It has been authticated by Skinner in Boston as a period Jiaqing piece, of course not Imperial--my next photos will be better so you can see. Pieces do not have to show wear---it is just normal for such an age that they do, this one has wear but very minimal. |
Subject:Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: njg Mon, Nov 21, 2005 It might be marked Jiaqing, the piece is not of the period. The torquoise ground is a typical feature of later ching wares. |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: nj Mon, Nov 21, 2005 My apologies i was momentarily confusing an Emperor. No problem it being Jiaqing. I was comparing to a much earlier period of enamelling and confusing Emperors. |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: njg Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Iv'e just had a quick look through Allen, there is a jiaqing example where the entire base is covered, a last quarter of 19th century where base is similar to yours and a fairly modern republic piece. |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: nj Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Last point. |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Daniel Mon, Nov 21, 2005 I just saw the bowl you mentioned on Vermeer's website. Very interesting to compare! |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Nice discussion, and fun. Perhaps I'll add a little spice and suggest this possibility. Both this bowl and the Vermeers' are 20th century, 2nd part. (The mark is the last thing to consider as has been pointed out here.) |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005 It is quite possible that subject bowl and the Vermeers bowl were both painted from the same example somewhere, published in 2 different books with different perspectives. Now if we can find that example... |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Like I said it has been looked at by numerous experts including Skinners and here at RISD the period is not at all in question-Jiaqing--just looing for it's use. |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Sorry I offend you. It is wonderful in collecting antiques to have conviction of truth. Enjoy your journey. |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J. Allen Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Dear Anna, |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Dear Anna, |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J. Allen Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Dear Anna, |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Dear Anna, |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005 First off, this is most likely the outermost, biggest, of a nest of bowls. They are used most often for drinking Chinese wine. Stores easily and it is fun to banter about the different sizes used by friends imbibing together. |
Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005 First off, this is most likely the outermost, biggest, of a nest of bowls. They are used most often for drinking Chinese wine. Stores easily and it is fun to banter about the different sizes used by friends imbibing together. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Hello Tony, I should revise my dating and agree with you about the early Republic era, 1920s to 40s, most likely the later using blanks from the 20s. I tend to focus more on the painting composition and techniques. The graviata blank nagged at me and it looks too good to be today's. But well done late 19th to 1920s. Forgot that in the Republic era, not all paintings were done in great detail. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005 They are lovely cups! Was this Coral ground also used on larger vases during Guangxu? |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J. Allen Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Hi Kang, |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Congratulations on your sales in London. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Mon, Nov 21, 2005 Anthony did you disagree with Mike from Vermeer-Griggs on his bowl date--he clearly put date as Jiaqing period. My bowl may be Republic as you say but it is nearly identical to his. As far as value I am giving it to RISD as part of thier "timeline of Chinese Porcelain" exhibit this Spring--I paid 35$--a steal whether it is Republic or Jiaqing would only make a difference on where to place it in thier timeline. I am too old to start collecting and selling in fact I was born during the Republic period-haha. My father who owned a lamp shop from 1920-1966 left me about 200-300 pieces that I am still dating, and some I have found to be very valuable, mostly vases intended for lamps. He left notes on quite a few items but many are a mystery--I will post some more. Regards~~Anna |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Tue, Nov 22, 2005 enhanced vermeer bowl |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Tue, Nov 22, 2005 My lighting was bad on the bowls pic and I used photo editor to enhance the "darkeness" I have taken the Vermeer Bowl and used same setting and it comes out same (biting as it was called) colors. I have found some Jiaqing pieces on auction with similar marks(I never go by the mark) but these are similar to Vermeers bowl. I am waiting for sunlight so I may get the true colors in my bowl. Hopefully tommorow! Regards Anna |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Tue, Nov 22, 2005 Dear Anna, |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Tue, Nov 22, 2005 Dear Anna, |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Thu, Nov 24, 2005 Here are better Pictures. The bowl at www.teadust.com is Period and Mark according to Mr Vermeer. This one?? Looks very much the same. The pictures show a much lighter turqoise and not as "neon" like colors. Foot looks correct for period as well as paste--any thoughts on these photos? |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Thu, Nov 24, 2005 more pics |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Thu, Nov 24, 2005 Doesn't matter how a private collector dates any item. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Thu, Nov 24, 2005 HI Kang thanks for the input!---They would never place it without a full work up by someone who has nationally recognized expertise...we get stuff on loan from other Museums since the RISD collection is rather lacking, an appraisal by Doyle New York is due within two weeks. I havent even shown it to RISD yet until I get more info. Are you familiar with Sandra Andacht? I am getting an appraisal also from her(by photo only) which should be in by next week--the Doyle appraisal will be from the actual piece. If it is Republic, I do not think it would be a good example from that period to use as the timeline will want to have pieces that reflect the typical pieces from the period and this doesnt seem to me to be a "typical" piece fom that time. Here is a nice Republic blue an white vase I have. Although not typical of period it is a nice piece. It was valued at 1200.00 in 1999 and has a nice spurious Yongzhen mark. Regards ANNA |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Fri, Nov 25, 2005 Glad to see you are covering the bases even if you are persistent. Doyle should be ok. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Fri, Nov 25, 2005 Thanks for the wonderful information. My father got this in 1963 in Japan. Nice vase 6.75 high and approx 4 in diameter. I had a matching smaller squat shaped vase that someone bought a while back. It is a nice example but is it typical of Republic ware or of a higher quality. Most Republic pieces I see are not as refined, although there are a lot of nice ones most I come across at auction and online are crudely done usually famille rose. I have a ton of them, mostly lamps. I posted a mint green lamp which I think is republic period or maybe little earlier? You have been very helpful...I will have to go to library and look up this artist--THANKS! Anna |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sat, Nov 26, 2005 Hi the jury is in, and you are correct the bowl is an early Republic piece valued at 1000.00. The Vermeer Bowl at www.teadust.com is , however, mark and period. As you had stated the turqoise is too green and the mark is slightly off as well as the hue of the purple. You have been very helpful thank you for your insight , I will try to post some more to see if I can keep you on your toes! It will have a new home and hopefully we can get a Jiaqing piece to have near it to compare the differences. Thanks for the great thread! |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Sat, Nov 26, 2005 Dear Anna, |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sat, Nov 26, 2005 Dear Anna, |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Edward shumaker Sun, Nov 27, 2005 Anna- |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Saratelli Sun, Nov 27, 2005 Thanks ED---I totally agree! |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: njg Mon, Nov 28, 2005 Shall we leave the last word with the ancients:- |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Mon, Nov 28, 2005 Nick- |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Sun, Dec 04, 2005 Just saw this now. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Kang Sun, Dec 04, 2005 Just saw this now. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: njg Sun, Dec 11, 2005 Its become quite apparant that a large number of Chinese Imperial wares of all types are based on the divine measure as given in the Mandate of Heaven. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Anna Sun, Dec 11, 2005 Hi Kang--I would hardly compare the quality but the color and mark are similar. I use that type of bowl for soup from time to time--the hoof bowl is much too nice for that--thin potted and very nice--this is a clunky thick potted and looks like it was painted by a child---which I wouldn't at all doubt as they are still making clothes for Walmart in PRC China using Child labor. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: Daniel Thu, Mar 09, 2006 The discussion is already some months ago, but I guess some of you still remember and are interested to see another example with a very similair decoration, but other form. The mark is also Jiaqing (not Guangxu!) Of the period or Early Republic? Please see link. |
Subject:Re: Jianqing bowl
Posted By: david Wed, May 02, 2018 Hi Anna: |
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