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Subject:The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: JLim Thu, Oct 12, 2017 IP:

To all

I note to my surprise that there is already a "Second Edition" of Anthony J Allen's "Detection Of Fakes" book. Can anyone in the know tell me what the difference is from the first edition, which I already have?

Kind regards

Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Fri, Oct 13, 2017

Hi Jonathan,
The second edition has a chapter on red wares which I had hoped to include in the first edition, but was thwarted in my intention by the loss of some images which I was awaiting before printing.

They turned up soon after I had finished the printing and rather than try and weave them into the text, I added them as an appendage.

The book registry in Wellington required me to obtain a new ISBN, so the first edition you have is considerably rarer than the second edition currently selling.


Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: JLim Sun, Oct 15, 2017

Thank you for your response Mr Allen.

Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: JLim Sun, Oct 15, 2017

Dear Mr Allen

Speaking of red wares: I have always identified the pictured red yuhuchunping vase as late 19th century because of the principles stated in your first book (ie the chipped glaze at the foot and the green cream glaze inside the footrim). Would you concur with this view?

Kind regards
Jonathan Lim

Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Mon, Oct 16, 2017

Hi Jonathan,
I hesitate to give an opinion given the disparity in colors between the three images.
If readers want an informed opinion, it is critical that they supply:
1. Full frontal images that accurately show the color hues
2. A close-up of the underside
3. A close-up of the foot rim
4. A close-up of any marks
5. Dimensions
6. Condition
7. Where purchased
8. Price paid

Several contributors including Bill H and Rat have regularly stressed the same requirements, perhaps excluding 7 & 8.

Your vase appears to have misfired, making it even more difficult to appraise from poor quality photos.

Perhaps Bill H and Rat will share their opinion.

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Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: JLim Tue, Oct 17, 2017

Dear Mr Allen

I have borrowed my mother's phone to permit more useful images. Three of them follow and I will put the remaining three in a final message.

The dimensions of the yuhuchunping are as follows: Height 208mm, Width 110mm.

The condition of the object is perfect, aside from splintering of the glaze at the foot where object has presumably been prized from sagger. The surface of the glaze is a little rougher than it would have been new due to wear. There is no misfiring that I can see. There is a strange black mark in the foot-circle like Chinese ink, which does not wipe off.

The place of purchase was not in Asia, if that is the concern. It was a local auction at Thornleigh NSW which occurred on 12 August 2012. From my records it cost $AU55.10.

I hope the following images are sufficient for your purpose. Thank you kindly for your time; I have further images of a monochrome blue dish I just got if you have time to comment.

Kind regards

Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: JLim Tue, Oct 17, 2017

The final three photographs.

Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: Bill H Fri, Oct 20, 2017

I've done some better photos myself and organized them into three groups at the sharing link below. These vases all seem to be post-Taiping Rebellion (after 1855), and the first two have a white glaze undercoat beneath the copper red, as does Jonathan's. The third one appears to have the copper glaze either fired on a clear pre-coat or on the biscuit itself.

First shown is a sang de boeuf baluster vase, about 7.5 inches tall, which I bought on eBay a dozen or more years ago and have shown previously to Tony and a few others of his stature for comment. Tony in particular steered me to a Republic Period dating.

I think the difference of Republic over Qing in this case may be the lack of significant chipping required to the foot. Instead the potter seems to have made a gallery around the foot to catch the drips, which worked fairly well. Also attesting to better glaze control, I suspect, is a lack of significant fine crackle. Instead, the glaze has a network of larger scale crackle that runs up, down and around several areas of the vase. Hopefully the photos, which are enlargeable, will show examples of this.

Next is a bottle vase about 8.125 inches tall with overtones of Langyao color to a glaze that also has an infusion of muted flambé streaks. This vase was sold to me a couple of years ago by an internationally well-respected dealer based in North Carolina. This vase, which Tony also has seen, has a much better developed and regular network of crackle than the one of baluster form. Combined with the amount of puddled glaze that had to be chipped from the foot rim, this one can be dated confidently to the fourth quarter of the 19th century, or at least that's what the Guru whispered in my ear.

Finally, there's another bottle vase of sang de boeuf hue with splashes of blue flambé. It has a bronze collar around its upper lip, which may have been applied as a precaution, because no particular damage (but traces of possible adhesive) can be seen in the glaze around it. The vase also shows the typical darker color that accrues during kiln-firing to unglazed biscuit of the foot. As expected of pieces dated to the fourth quarter of the 19th century, the foot rim also has been ground to remove accumulated glaze runs from the kiln. As a plus, the somewhat gnarly crackle of this third vase has identical features to what Tony shows for a probable 1870-1880 copper-red jar used as Figure 71(a) in his 1996 "Allen's Introduction to Later Chinese Porcelain".

Comparing Jonathan's yuhuchunping to my vases, its firing and glazing characteristics seem quite similar to the bottle vase with flambé undertones in the middle of my picture package. I can't tell if it is a matter of lighting or not, but the yuhuchunping looks like it has sustained some loss of luster in the usually shiny copper glaze, though this would not be unusual for the period.

Best regards and welcome all commentators,

Bill H.

URL Title :Copper red vases

Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: JLim Fri, Oct 20, 2017

Dear Bill

Thank you very much for your response. There are some points I would like to mention:

First, I was surprised to note that a black ink mark similar to mine is also present within the foot of your 19th century langyao object. I was then even more surprised to look through Mr Allen's books and find similar black marks (page 138 of the first book and pages 207 and 210 of the second book).

In the case of our two objects, and two of Mr Allen's objects, the markings are mere smears of ink. However, in two other of Allen's examples the ink marks seem to be actual Chinese words, hastily written, which I cannot read.

Has anyone noted the presence of these black ink marks before, as diagnostic of 19th century langyao? I assume people have noticed it from time to time.

I would guess the following: check marks (whether quality control, marking for certain destinations or whatever) were being used in the 19th century for all forms of porcelain. For most forms of porcelain such check marks would merely be painted on to the sides and wiped off with trivial ease when the object was being packed. However, on red vases, a black mark would be nearly invisible. The worker would be obliged to paint the check marks inside the foot of the vase on the relatively pale base. This mark might go unnoticed on packing, whereupon the ink would dry on and become indelible. After a hundred or so years the ink becomes completely stuck to the object and cannot be wiped off.

Second, I am intrigued by something I just read in Hobson "Chinese Pottery And Porcelain" Vol 2 p125. Regarding the crackled grey-green glaze often found within the foot of langyao objects (including our two langyaos) Hobson says " is tempted to ask if it was not in fact intended to be a sang-de-boeuf red glaze from which a lack of oxygen or some other accident of the kiln has dispelled all the red...these conditions might well be present in such an enclosed space as the foot of the bowl..."

This is intriguing, because as Allen says, Langyao of the late 19th century is characterised by bases which "may be of a greyish white or...sometimes greyish white crackle or alternatively a white glaze with underglaze blue circles..." (Book I page 137).

Is it possible that the grey-green crackling inside the base of these objects could simply be (deliberately) misfired versions of the langyao red? Nigel Wood's "Chinese Glazes" says that iron based glazes in moderate reduction, ie fired in relative absence of oxygen, produces a celadon glaze, but that same iron based glaze, in the presence of oxygen, produces langyao red.

I would suggest that the grey-green crackling is simply the exact same glaze as the outer glaze, added to the inside of the foot, and inside the belly, of the vase. When fired in the kiln, the relative lack of oxygen in both locations would produce a celadon green, while the remainder of the vase would turn red. In short, one glaze, two colours.

Third, yes, my vase has a certain degree of wear to the shine, especially around the "shoulders" and "upper belly" of the form. However, the remainder of the vase is much more shiny and resembles your vase more.

Kind regards

Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: JLim Sat, Oct 21, 2017

Actually I was in error in my previous posting; Langyao Ware is of course coloured with copper based glaze rather than iron - this means that the red colour is a REDUCTION rather than an oxidation, and so the enclosure of the foot could not possibly produce the greenish glaze inside the foot.

I would instead suggest that the interior belly and the foot-circle of the vases have been painted with celadon glaze to provide a contrast with the coppery exterior.

Bill, you state that the Langyao vases are undercoated with white glaze before being covered in red glaze. This presumably accounts for the whiteness at the rim.

But Nigel Wood (page 181) thinks that the whiteness at the rim was a result of the characteristics of the copper glaze itself.

My understanding is that, when fired, copper red glazes form a kind of sandwich, with colourless glaze on the exterior and interior, and with the red only forming in between where there is sufficient thickness. This means that, when the glaze flows downward during firing, there is often a section of transparent glaze at the lip where it has thinned out. As on normal white porcelain the transparent glaze takes on a white appearance.

Kind regards

Subject:Re: The Detection Of Fakes 2nd Edition
Posted By: Bill H Mon, Oct 23, 2017

My misrepresentation of the glazing of white areas derived from a garbled recollection of procedures for making peachbloom porcelains. According to Rose Kerr, this begins with a clearcoat glazing of the vase or other object, to which surface the copper pigment is then applied, and this layer is then covered over in another clear coating of glaze before firing. As such, the copper doesn't readily oxidize until some of it occasional finds its way through the glaze layer and turns greenish.


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