Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Reply Message
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: Chris J. Wed, Oct 11, 2017 IP: 89.67.185.247

I Believe that this white and blue porcelain plate was made in late Ming or early Qing period for export. Am I right? The rand of the plate is chipped and it looks like the plate was maybe mounted in silver frame. The diameter is ca. 23 cm







Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: JLim Thu, Oct 12, 2017



Dear Chris

How interesting. Is there any way to view the back of this plate, especially the footrim? I instinctively think it is either Japanese or (because of the greyish cobalt) Yongzheng.

Also, you say the "rand" is chipped - I do not understand this term?

Kind regards
Jonathan

Post a Reply
Name:
Email:
Group: China & Japan
Subject:
Message:
Link URL:
Enter here the complete URL of any site, page or image you would like to show other visitors.
URL Title:
Enter here the title of the link you've given above. This will appear to the visitor. Eg., if you are linking another picture, enter "Another picture". The link will not appear without a title.
Image URL:
Enter here the URL of an image if it is already uploaded on the web. The image will appear with your posting. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post.
Image: You may upload up to three images. If you would like to upload more images to this message please do so by replying to this same message.

Please make sure the file type is JPEG or GIF and the filename does not contain spaces.





Use the Browse button to find an image (jpg or gif) on a local drive on your computer to upload for including with your message. Do not upload images with file names containing spaces. Please do not upload files larger than 100 KB in size. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post. Check the "email notification" box below if you would like to be notified of any responses to your message.
Check here for email notification.
Security Code: Security Image: please enter the text appears in this image.

Please type in the code you see in the image directly above this input box.
 

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: Chris J. Fri, Oct 13, 2017

Dear Jonathan, thank you for your opinion. Sorry for my bad English. With "chipped" I meant that on rand of the plate there are plenty of small chips (splinter) and traces which allow the guess that it was set in metal frame (probably silver frame). Yongzheng looks for me good but I hope it is maybe a bit older (Kangxi?).

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: TOAN Fri, Oct 13, 2017

Hi there
This looks like an 18th century Chinese exportware
My knowledge is limited and I apologise if I am wrong

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: Bokaba Sun, Oct 15, 2017

I agree, 18th Century export. Hard to tell if Yongzheng, but I would be more comfortable with mid-Qianlong, c. 1760s-1780s.

Bokaba

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: Chris J. Sun, Oct 15, 2017

Thanks for reply. I was sure it is XVIII century export ware, but I have hoped it is maybe erlier

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: JLim Sun, Oct 15, 2017




Dear Chris

I am afraid my reply appears to have been lost. I repeat it again; the chipping you refer to may be a good sign, not of a metal frame, but of fritting, which is an effect that is typical of 18th century porcelain from China and which is almost impossible to fake even today.

Would it be possible to see photos of the fritting you describe? I would still prioritise seeing a photo of the footrim, since that would probably be decisive. I await your reply.

Kind regards
Jonathan

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: JLim Mon, Oct 16, 2017



Dear Bokaba

I mentioned Yongzheng because of the greyness of the cobalt. I attach a photograph of a Yongzheng saucer I own which has grey cobalt.

Kind regards
JLim



Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: Chris J. Wed, Oct 18, 2017

My plate is not at all grey. The color of cobalt is very intense

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: Chris J. Mon, Oct 16, 2017

Thanks for your comments. Here are photograph of chippings. I can not sent a better photo because I no more possess this item. Nevertheless it would be interesting gain new knowledge.



Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: JLim Tue, Oct 17, 2017



Dear Chris

Thank you, that footrim looks perfect for the 18th century.

Rgds
JLim

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: Chris J. Wed, Oct 18, 2017

Thanks for your comments

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: JLim Fri, Oct 20, 2017




Dear Chris

It is extremely difficult to put what I am saying into words, so please check out the below photograph. On the left, a Chongzhen dish from c. 1640. I would expect Kangxi dishes to resemble this colour. On the right, the Yongzheng dish.

Note the difference in shade between the two; the left is the Transitional/Kangxi "sapphire blue", the Yongzheng dish is much greyer and more resembles your plate.

Kind regards
J.Lim



Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: Chris J. Sun, Oct 22, 2017

Dear JLim,

thank you very much for your mail. I think my plate has much more intense colour then this Yongzehn plate but it is intenser the other plate too. Your plates are very nice

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: JLim Tue, Oct 24, 2017



Dear Chris

Even ignoring the shade of blue entirely, the decoration itself is post-Kangxi. This form of unnaturally gigantic flower with the shading handled by pencilled hatching rather than washes of colour postdates Kangxi. See Allen's second book, page 33 for a similar "mutant flower" design dated 1750-65 by Mr Allen.

Hobson "Chinese Pottery And Porcelain" Vol II p203 speculates that this favouring of hatching over washes was due to the vanishing of the good quality cobalt from Kangxi's reign. Indeed your dish contains an attempt at translucent washing at the rim which looks rather blotchy; compare to the somewhat ugly attempt at washing on my own Yongzheng dish, which looks like someone using cheap ink on tissue paper. Then look at the subtleties of translucency on my Chongzhen dish.

The combination of pencil-hatching with washes on the same porcelain may thus be further signs of a Yongzheng dating.

I would add to this the generally robotic quality of the design, which I would say is typical of the post-Kangxi decline. It looks like laboured work.

I wish I had at least one Qianlong dish to line up with the other two dishes to give you a real flavour of the evolution of the style, but I seem to have inadvertently sold all the (several) Qianlong dishes I once had.

As you can deduce, I don't particularly like Qianlong porcelains. I would love to line up all three just to put them in one photograph; an interesting image that could be useful to people. But I would characterise Qianlong blue as "mucky" - quite dirty looking and heading towards a kind of cheap blue ink appearance. The drawing style becomes even more robotic and laboured and does not appeal to me.

Kind regards
JLim

Subject:Re: Chinese Ming/Qing porcelain plate
Posted By: Chris J. Wed, Oct 25, 2017

Dear JLim,
thank you for comments. It was very informative.


Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |