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Subject:hongshan jade
Posted By: Tancredi Falconeri Wed, Apr 04, 2012 IP: 93.151.92.22

Does anyone know what has happened to Bill Anita MUI ,Diasai?are they still part of the forum?

Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Thu, Apr 05, 2012

Anita Mui started her own website. I don't know if it is still active.I truly miss her great advise.
Ernest

Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: jglad Fri, Apr 06, 2012

Anita Mui had been warned by the moderator here to stop her negative personal comments several times, after complaints by several members. She then resorted to spamming this forum with close to a hundred fake email addresses but the text was all the same tone and content. The moderator thankfully managed to stop that too. Her site is flagged by google as an attack site, warning anyone that their identities are at risk if they go there.

Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Tancredi Falconeri Sun, Apr 08, 2012

two more h.20,5cm





Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Mon, Apr 09, 2012

Hongshan ???you can't be serious !!!!!!!!!!!
Ernest

Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Bill Mon, Apr 09, 2012

A Hongshan style statue, made of serpentine, used to appear frequently on eBay, but it is getting harder to find even decent Hongshan fakes on eBay now. Any decent Hongshan style pieces now cost much more especially the postage cost (from China) due to rise in RMB. I believe some of the Hongshan style pieces that were once abundant just 5-6 years ago had to be made with older and better material but was hard to pinpoint when they were made. The problem with collecting Hongshan jade carvings is that it would be almost impossible to find a genuine piece. Even you can find one, you would be expected to pay a fortune for it and there is no guarantee that the piece is indeed authentic unless there was documentation for its excavation. In short, once any genuine Hongshan piece was separated from its burial place, it would be almost impossible to authenticate it.

However, it was indeed fun to study it though.

Some of the better Hongshan style pieces would have their own collector values if they were made of good jade material and with good carving quality.

Do you have some better HS style pieces to post here?

Bill

PS Lately I no longer ollect any jade carving because there were really not that many good buys around and I would rather spend my money on gold, silver and stocks.

Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Tancredi Falconeri Tue, Apr 10, 2012

Thanks to all for your responses. I heard of diasai privately and I know will be back on 20 aprile.volevo to ask Bill if he knows Prof. hu-feng and if he knows how to contact him, if I can privately send high resolution photos to 2000k, and if they can help me with better define the type of material (jade) will send him the story of the Hongshan pieces that are in the collections of the family from the years 40, 60, the height of the piece is 20.5 cm and weight of 1168 g (is the smallest ) best regards







Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Tancredi Falconeri Tue, Apr 10, 2012

the material (JADE ?)is exactly the same of the item below you can see at taiwan museum(they have the same origin )pag 4 nr 8 http://www.dhdart.com/files/356-1002-164,c4-1.php



Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Bill Tue, Apr 17, 2012

I am not so sure how you decide that your piece:

(1) was made of same material of the second piece posted by you;
(2) material of both pieces were from the same source (origin);
(3) The link you posted for the second piece did not appear to be the official site of any museums.

My opinions for them:

(1) Their material appear to be quite different;
(2) The size of your first piece appears to be so huge and was definitely made of low-grade serpentine (can be scratched), the chance of it being from the HS period is NIL. There were no excavated Hongshan pieces in such sizes known, only pieces that were authenticated by HS experts but they were quite different from you piece in both material and workmanship. It would be very difficult for any HS people to cut such big piece and "carved" it. It is also quite "ugly" and its material inferior. (No disrespect intended). My friend, B, had tons of similar HS style figurines made of this type of material in his house. He did donate some of them to our local city arts center and they believed that they were Neolithic because they thought he was a jade expert.
(3) I really cannot tell too much about the second piece without being able to examine it closely. However, its workmanship and material appears to be much better.

Best wishes.

Bill

Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: LEE Thu, Apr 19, 2012

Very true Bill. The pieces shown above are 100% fake, artificially dyed and acid aged .
I will show you a real one though. It is made from a celadon Liaoning type of nephrite, with patches of clearer white like pudding stone. See how natural effect of aging over many thousands of years.



Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Bill Mon, Apr 23, 2012

Hi, Lee: Thanks for posting your pig dragon. Is its real color more celadon than its picture shows? It looks kind of celadon (inside) with a brown crust outside.
With such low resolution picture, it was very difficult to see how good your zhulong is. If it was indeed made of high quality celadon nephrite jade (S.G. equals to and higher than 2.92 and MOH hardness of 6.0 or higher), then it is quite possible that it was made of those old xiu yu (nephrite) there used to be available in Liaoning area which are now extinct. This type of nephrite is very similar to the quality of Hetian nephrite jade but there was no record of its original source. There is rumor that nephrite rocks can still be found in Liaoning area but those are sugar jade (tan color) and I cannot confirm its availability. So far almost most of the xiu yu (xiu yan jade) that came out of Xiu Yan (or Liaoning area) now are basically serpentine that can be scratched. I did see some dark green (some almost black) older serpentine jade that could not be scratched but with low SG (2.50 or lower). The dark green (bi yu) nephrite jade used to make large Hongshan C dragons is the type of Manassa bi yu that Mr. Chou Nam Chuen believes was one of the credible material used for authentic Honshan pieces due to their non-availiabilities. The problem is if my memory serves me correctly, none of the large C-dragons were ever excavated (documented). Also, I have yet seen the pictures of any known excavated pig dragons (may be on purpose so that forgers cannot fake them) on any books or web sites. Therefore, I cannot say for sure there are any known excavated pig dragons (documented). Since pig dragon is the most faked Hongshan carving because if its popularity, therefore unless one can study those pig dragons in reputable Chinese museums or study under Prof. Gao Dashun, most of us simply lack the knowledge of hoping to authenticate a HS pig dragon, especially by pictures alone. I would like to see the top of this pig dragon and some close ups of its small hole, large center hole and its mouth, also its nostril, these are the places which may give you some hints in how good your pig dragon is. Hopefully, may be Diasai can drop in and say a few words here because one time there was a guy who e-mailed me after reading some of my postings here, then sent me two of his "genuine" pig dragons (made of celadon nephrite jade) to trade for some of my HS pieces. He also said he was an HS jade expert and volunteered to teach me how to appraise and authenticate pig dragons. Luckily, Diasai told me both of his pig dragons were fakes. I almost could not get back my pieces from him (those are not my best pieces though). Therefore, I understand how difficult it is to acquire any genuine HS jade carvings. Everything has to be right and even then it is very difficult to authenticate them because who you can trust? It seems even some of these so-called Chinese HS jade experts had a price.

The really credible Hongshan jade material I had seen on excavated or authenticated HS jade pieces are those that were made of beautiful (with shinny luster) yellow (not greenish yellow) jade. I wish I could test and see if they are nephrite jade because it is almost impossible to find any TRUE yellow nephrite jade. If they are serpentine jade, I believe they cannot be scratched because only good quality jade can have this type of beautiful gem luster and not corroded after such long burials.

One misconception that most Hongshan jade collectors (or should I say HS style jade collectors) has is:

they believe because Hongshan era was Neolithic therefore its jades have to be weathered and corroded on their surfaces and looks

This is simply not true because:

(1) Many genuine Hongshan pieces were made of quality stone that had high SG and hardness and beautiful polishing which protected them from corrosion even after long burials. Many genuine HS pieces look like "new" (gem like) after they were just cleaned/brushed (softly) with nothing but soap and water.

(2) Many HS tombs were on high ground (like in the middle of a hill) and very often the jade pieces were stored in almost air-tight stone coffins that did not allow water to seep through.

The reason any genuine HS jades are so valuable is because of their rarity, quality material and superb workmanship (both quality of carving and polishing). Unfortunately, unless one can examine and study the carving techniques being employed on some known excavated HS pieces, using what they learn to authenticate other non-excavated pieces, the chance of any of us who can tell for sure if any piece is genuine HS is not good. Some time even respected HS jade experts could not agree on a piece. That is simply unfortunate. It would be much appreciated if you would share with us your expertise on the Hongshan jades and tell us how you can authenticate any HS pieces using this pig dragon as an example. I had been studying HS jades very diligently for a while a few years ago but after a while you had to give up on the hope of acquiring any genuine HS pieces on reasonable prices because for every single genuine pieces, there would be about 9,999 fakes. Thanks.

Bill

PS If Daisai happens to read my message, please be kind enough to drop me an e-mail on my AOL e-mail address. I tried to send a message to his old address today but it was returned undelivered. Thanks in advance.

Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: LEE Tue, Apr 24, 2012

Hi Bill, you have such interest for Hongshan jade. Here is another photo from a different angle. This carving is made from a pudding stone looking nephrite with clear patches like the one screen with Qianlong inscription found at the National palace museum in Taipei. This one has fine brown surface inclusion and very natural surface pitting typical of very old burried jade carving.



Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Tancredi Falconeri Fri, Apr 20, 2012

to Bill
thanks for your replay
-i would like to get in touch with you privately,can i send you email ?which is your private mail ? can you send me one email to [email protected]
-my family is well known and has many different collections we owns some very different hongshan pieces and they have so far been considered belonging to a different civilization
-i live in italy
-the other pieces are bigger and heavier
-the hardness is from 5,5 to 6,5 7 depends on where you do the test
-some is nephrite some is jadeite
-i need to contact prof hu feng in china ,but i need more information about him
-these are the information i can provide through the forum
excuse me for my broken English i speak better than i write
thank you for your attention
Best wishes





Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Tancredi falconeri Sun, Apr 29, 2012

I try to send you a private email , but the sistem wrote me Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

    [email protected]
Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 554 554 delivery error: dd This user doesn't have a yahoo.com account ([email protected]) [-5] - mta1218.mail.sk1.yahoo.com (state 18).

Can you sent to my email another contact ?or a phone number?
Regards T.F.

Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: Bill Tue, May 01, 2012

TF: I did e-mail you at your hot mail address on 4/23 and 4/30 respectively and I have no idea why you did not receive my message. I do not like to receive messages from hotmail because it is notorious for virus. Please post another of your more reputable e-mail addresses here and I will try to e-mail you again. Thanks. Bill

Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: tamcredi falconeri Tue, May 08, 2012

to Bill
sorry for the disguise.this is my gmail address
[email protected],





Subject:Re: hongshan jade
Posted By: pipane Thu, Jul 25, 2019

unfortunately all the above pictures show fantasist modern "jade" statues, beside what one may think it is quite impossible to fake 5000 years old patina on hard stone/jade. And antique jade don't look like this at all. Furthermore all of them are consistent in style and patina with modern copies than flock the market, actually I could this very afternoon go to one particular market in Beijing and shoot picture of boxes of those low quality imitation.
it not even what we call good copies, since good copies looks like ancient pieces, these are just fantasy in style.






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