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Subject:Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: Brad Fenichel Fri, Jan 28, 2022 IP: 2601:145:c200:3375:2

I am new to this forum, and my understanding is that there are many gracious and knowledgeable folks here who would not mind answering a question! Thank you in advance; your time is truly appreciated.

I recently acquired a set of 3 old paintings. They are watercolor and gouache on silk, and as you see, each one is mounted in a paper-and-silk bi-fold mounting. They were originally bound together in a sort of portfolio, but have come unbound.

SO ... My question is: I am guessing these are Chinese, dating somewhere between 1920 and 1945 or so. Maybe I'm wrong, and they are not Chinese at all?? Any help would be appreciated! The red chop markings seem to be from three different artists, if I'm not mistaken.

Is any of that correct? Can someone give me a hint as to what the writing says and who the artist(s) might be? I HAVE NUMBERED the 3 works ("1" "2" and "3") in the pictures I'm attaching.

I can only attach 3 images here, so I will attach the rest by replying to my own message.

THANK YOU!
...And if I'm violating any rules/protocol for this forum, please let me know (and go easy on me!), as it's my first time here.







Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: I.Nagy Sat, Jan 29, 2022

These leaves are from an album depicting court ladies engeged in leisure activities.
Inscription in the No.1. picture.
道光乙未仲春
仿仇實父畫意
In Mid-Spring of the Wood-Sheep Year of Daoguang Era (1835)
After the painting intentions of Qiu Shifu*
Signature,
薌湖居士 - Xianghu jushi (Retired Scholar of the Fragrant Lake - Pseudonym
Seal,
君光之印 - Seal of Junguang (Courtesy name)

This pseudonym and courtesy name belonged to
Jiang Lian 蒋蓮 1795-1836, Qing Dynasty painter

* Qiu Shifu a.k.a. Qiu Ying 1494-1552, Ming Dynasty painter

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: Brad Fenichel Sat, Jan 29, 2022

Wow, thank you for providing that detailed information! Question: The inscription and seal do not reveal the true painter or date of this piece, correct? I'm thinking it was painted in the early 20th century, and the painter was copying from another (honored) painter's work. Do you agree? Thanks again!

Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: peter Sun, Jan 30, 2022

I could not see a reason why the album leafs shoud not be painted by Jiang Lian.

Here is a Chinese site showing some other examples of his work.
https://kknews.cc/culture/5rpjxa2.html

Peter

Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: rat Sun, Jan 30, 2022

Yes, I agree, I think these may very well be genuine works in good condition, originally mounted as an album.

Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: rat Sun, Jan 30, 2022

The inscriptions and seals all appear consistent in identifying Jiang Lian as your artist. The inscription in the initial picture says that he is relating that work to Ming painter Qiu Ying, but he is not copying a specific work of Qiu's, and there's no indication that someone other than Jiang is the painter. Given the ubiquity of fakes and copies, it's difficult to say with certainty that these cannot be the work of a later copyist, but practicality suggests that these are not later copies.

Here's what comes to mind for me. To start with, I believe that Jiang was not a well-known artist, so forgers would likely try to fake someone better known (though there's no certainty on these points). Second, he was also not a particularly good artist. It's not that he was a bad painter, but students/copyists typically were given or selected particularly noteworthy examples to reproduce. Relatedly, the pictures in the article Peter shared a link to suggest to me that, if they are all by Jiang, then Jiang could be a pretty sloppy painter/casual with his brushwork (and there's some evidence of that in your pictures too). (Or they aren't all by Jiang, meaning that people were indeed copying/faking him, but if your pictures are by a later copyist they are good quality given the range of other examples shown in that article.) Third/fourth?, these album leaves show an array of different seals; a forger would have needed to recreate each one of those from scratch, and I suggest that this would probably have been considered too much work given Jiang's limited stature. Similarly, why forge three different Jiang pictures with different seals? It would be a lot easier to do just one hanging scroll, or reapply the same seal on the three different leaves you have. Finally, a copyist would not create seals to replicate the original: the point of copying is to educate yourself by first observing closely what the artist has done and then trying to do it yourself. A copyist is interested in painting technique and has no reason to be forging seals.

While your pictures seem tighter (perhaps given their smaller format) and their colors in better condition most of those in the article Peter shared, I don't see why that is reason to reject them as genuine examples of Jiang's work.

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Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: peter Mon, Jan 31, 2022

Your post is a fine example how authentication should be approached!
For me the turning point in accepting a painting as a genuine work is usually when I feel it more difficult to argue it as a forgery.
But in this case there is neither reason nor evidence for thinking this a forgery at all.

As for the condition: these are quality materials, aged together in this album. I expect this to be the 19th century mounting. In closed album leafs the artworks are very well preserved and do not have to endure the stress of a scroll painting. probably the album was brought to England early, and later it was cut to frame a few leafs and your 3 leafs are the leftover.

peter



Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: Brad Fenichel Mon, Jan 31, 2022

Makes sense. THANK YOU!

Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: rat Mon, Jan 31, 2022

thanks. Your point about album leaves being less distressed than a hanging scroll makes good sense and may explain the difference between these leaves and some of the hanging scrolls in the article.

Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: Brad Fenichel Mon, Jan 31, 2022

Thank you, @rat, for taking the time to research and educate. Much appreciated!

Subject:Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: Brad Fenichel Sun, Jan 30, 2022

I. Nagy, thank you for taking time to provide so much wonderful detail about these paintings. I do have a question, being new to this type of art.

It is my understanding that "honorific" marks and signatures are common in the world of Chinese art. As you look at these inscriptions and signatures, is it your opinion that the actual painter was Jiang Lian (in 1835), or do you believe the signature is "honorific" and it was painted at a later date by a more recent artist? I was guessing the paintings dated to about the 1920s, but if they are actually by Jiang Lian himself, then they must truly be from around 1835. What is your opinion? They are definitely original works in watercolor and gouache; they are not prints.

THANKS AGAIN!

Subject:#2 of 3 (More Photos) - Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: Brad Fenichel Sat, Jan 29, 2022

Message #2 of 3, where I'm attaching photos of painting #2





Subject:Re: #2 of 3 (More Photos) - Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: I.Nagy Sat, Jan 29, 2022

道光乙未仲春
寫於浴桐小館
薌湖居士
In Mid-Spring of the Wood-Sheep Year of Daoguang Era (1835)
Xianghu jushi
Seal,
蓮 - Lian (of Jiang Lian 蒋蓮)

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: #2 of 3 (More Photos) - Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: I.Nagy Sun, Jan 30, 2022

Sorry, I missed to translate the second line,
寫於浴桐小館
Painted at the Yutong Small House

I.Nagy

Subject:#3 of 3 (Final Photos) - Re: Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: Brad Fenichel Sat, Jan 29, 2022

Message #3 of 3, where I'm attaching photos of painting #3





Subject:Re: #3 of 3 (Final Photos) - Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: I.Nagy Sat, Jan 29, 2022

Signature,
蒋蓮 - Jiang Lian
Seal,
香湖 - Xianghu (Fragrant lake) - Another pseudonym

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: #3 of 3 (Final Photos) - Would Appreciate Help Identifying These Paintings
Posted By: rat Mon, Jan 31, 2022

as an aside, the content here is not court ladies but a lohan and attendant, cf Wu Bin's lohan handscrolls


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