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Subject:Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Tue, Aug 31, 2021 IP: 23.243.126.110

Dear friends,
There are online many copies of the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes painting scroll, as shown here.
I would REALLY appreciate your help on whether there is a known original painting scroll- when and by whom of these later copies 🙏🙏🙏
Tony



Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: I.Nagy Wed, Sep 01, 2021

水滸英雄 - Heroes of the Water Margin
歳在壬辰春江南居士 - Date; Spring of the Year of Water-Dragon (1952) Jiangnan Jushi - Resident of Jiangnan (Pseudonym)

Painter of the above scroll;
Zhu Shuixiong 朱水雄 1940-
Pseudonym; Jiangnan Jushi 江南居士
Painter and calligrapher, Born in Shaoxing, Zhejiang. Academian of the Central Academy of Painting and Calligraphy.
He has painted several large sized scrolls of Chinese emperors, celebrities, tigers, etc. which were reproduced for the art market.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: rat Wed, Sep 01, 2021

No known original (though somebody obviously created a prototype illustration that this has been knocked off from), this seems to be part of a larger group of pictures showing various groups of figures from Chinese folklore/literary/religious history/fiction. These started over a decade ago with imitations of known paintings such as "Spring Festival on the River" and have since proliferated.

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: rat Wed, Sep 01, 2021

Looks like I. Nagy has identified the originator of this and several other scrolls, nice job!

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Wed, Sep 01, 2021

Thanks very much to both I. Nagy and RAT!!!
Your expertise, dedication and contribution to the love for Asian Arts are immerse.
As for the painter, it is interesting to note that he was born in 1940 and the painting was done in 1952!? Could it be possible that there is another person with the same "Resident of Jiangnan" -Pseudonym? The reason I ask it that I came across a similar looking painting scroll (11' x 14") that was hand-painted (not printed) exquisitely on silk and appears to be old and with the same meaning of the writings.
The info is very helpful and I greatly appreciate it!!!

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: rat Thu, Sep 02, 2021

given the 60 year lunar cycle, 2012 may be the date

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Wed, Sep 01, 2021

Born in 1940, the painter could not have painted it at 12 years old. It could also be painted by him in 2012?
Or he painted it after (as close as 90%) another one that he saw and kept all the writings the same including the Water-Dragon year, except those I circled.
Sorry - I don't have a picture of the scroll that I mentioned to share. I was shown and got intrigued by its quality.

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: I.Nagy Thu, Sep 02, 2021

1952 is too early.
Sure, it could have been painted by him in 2012.
At least 9 years have passed since then.
In the last year someone has posted a similar long scroll on the Forum from him with tigers.
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Thu, Sep 02, 2021

Again, thanks so very much to you both 🙏😊🙏
Yes, it makes more sense that it could be painted in 2012.
Also, I searched and there seems to be quite a few painters in the past with the same “Resident of Jiangnan" -Pseudonym. Besides this painter, another one lived 1881-1940, ... The scroll I saw has the exact meaning of the writings including the Year Water-Dragon which unfortunately won’t be timely fit with the older painter (1881-1940) with same Pseudonym!
The scroll I saw definitely looks older than 9 years (talking about fakes- I really appreciate RAT with his insights and time with my set of 7 flaked painting scroll with Imperial seals🙏)
That is why I am thinking toward the idea that the painter of the scroll that these imitated scroll are knock off must have painted after another painting scroll that he saw!
There is another clue and if you I. Nagy could help me with the meaning of these characters at the end of the imitated scroll 🙏🙏🙏
Again, I am really sorry for keep referring to a scroll that I don’t have a picture to show 🙏😊





Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: I.Nagy Fri, Sep 03, 2021

I think, I have found the answer.
The name of painter was Zhang Ze 張擇 1882-1940
He was the brother of Zhang Daqian 張大千. The "One Hundred Tigers" scroll with the very same "Jiangnan Jushi" signature and seal gave me the idea for further surch. 
Here is the explanation;
https://www.chinalit.com/store/p240/One_Hundred_Tigers_%28%E7%99%BE%E8%99%8E%E5%9B%BE%29%2C_Zhang_Ze_%28%E5%BC%A0%E6%8B%A9_ca._1882_%E2%80%93_1940%29%2C__Antique-Imitation_Reproduction_P

However, the Year of Water-Dragon gets caught again.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: I.Nagy Fri, Sep 03, 2021

The last(encircled) characters from the imitated scroll,
壬癸秋 - Autumn of Water-water (rengui) Year -
Non existing combination of two consecutive (9th and 10th) heavenly stems
Signature,
淦生識 - Signed by Gansheng
 
Kuai Gansheng 蒯淦生
His full name appears at the end (apprisal) of the Wu Changshuo signed long scroll titled the "Prosperous Suzhou" (姑蘇繁華圖)

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Sat, Sep 04, 2021

Dear I. Nagy,
I really appreciate your time, effort and expertise, helping me with questions on this scroll.
Yes,I thought of Zhang Ze as well, but as you mentioned, the timing of his lifespan does not fit logically!
The encircled characters are the “extra” text in the passage at the end of the other scroll as compared to the one I saw. I thought it would reveal some glue ...
Now that I found and posted the online copy of the exact scroll I saw, we can all talk about image of the same scroll here 😊
Again, could you I. Nagy please help to see if it mentions in the passage at the end here by the painter could have provided more detail about it 🙏🙏🙏
Thanks so very much again 🙏😊🙏



Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: I.Nagy Sun, Sep 05, 2021

Dear Tony,
Here is my reading and my rough transation of the inscription.
The language of the text significantly refers to the times after 1949.
水滸英雄人物乃具描述宋徽宗
封建王朝残酷統治剥削人民専
制之黒暗社会放引起各階層人物起來
反帝反剥削反官府求得人民生活得
以辟救自由之尖鋭闘争革命引動
オ示自四面八方匯聚於水泊梁山這
無物均具頂天之地之偉大英雄也
The Heroes of the Water Nargin is a description of
the cruel rule of Huizong of Song's feudal dynasty. The exploitation of the people in this black age caused all segment of the society to revolt. The anti-emperor, anti-exploitation and anti-feudalist official population gathered at Mt. Shuibo Liangshan to struggle hard for their salvation. On his barren plain they became great heroes.

With fregards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Mon, Sep 06, 2021

Dear I. Nagy,
I’owe so much gratitude for your time, kindness and devotion🙏♥️🙏
Among others, your knowledge and expertise in Asian Arts are so valuable, helping to further our understanding 🙏🙏🙏

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Fri, Sep 03, 2021

Interestingly, I even found online copy of the EXACT painting scroll I saw! Of course the seals look different, and it seems that photos of the original were pasted together and the spacings of the scenes became slightly different as compared to the original.
How the original of this copy made it way here to the US and who painted it ? ... Those are the intriguing questions!
Sorry, don't mean to take up too much time of the forum. Will ask for photo to share when possible.



Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Sat, Sep 04, 2021

These are the 2 from the original that I can get to share 🙏





Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Sat, Sep 04, 2021




Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Sun, Sep 05, 2021

To me, it is indeed an interesting scroll as shown and described below. I persuaded my friend and he agreed to further share the details of the scroll.
As you can see, it seems the painter forgot and later decided to add an additional character as he was “squeezed” in between the three around him that had already been painted. It might indicates originality in the idea of this painting as it was not painted after a particular existing one, just like how Leonard Da Vinci changed his mind on the thumb’s position of Christ in his painting.
Would any of you recommend or suggest a place or person for this scroll to be examined further in person, please (Los Angeles area) 🙏 Or my friend would even welcome and appreciate your true opinion on whether this painting scroll is worth the time and effort to learn further😊
Thanks so very much 🙏😊🙏





Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Sun, Sep 05, 2021

As compared to later version



Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Sun, Sep 05, 2021

ALL the later versions imitated or copies of imitation do not have this “unexpected addition”, Including the one that I thought was the online copy of the exact original I saw. Please see below



Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: manuD Thu, Sep 09, 2021

Another copy of your "original" scroll is available on a French auction site





Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Thu, Sep 09, 2021

Thanks for the info manuD 🙏😊
It must be really cool if this indeed is the original painting scroll whose painter’s wonder of imaginary mind leaded to manifestation from the novel every aspects of each of almost 80 characters, from appearance, temperament, personality, ... that captivated and inspired others to express themselves after!
Who is the painter? Hopefully the seal can reveal the identity ...
🙏😊🙏

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Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Thu, Sep 09, 2021

And I should have put the word “original” in quote, as I am sure there had been other paintings of the novel since the 14th century.
I have heard of the title of the novel, yet do not know a single character from it! Will look up an English version one day 😊

Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: manuD Sat, Sep 11, 2021

The 108 heroes are listed in the wikipedia page in French (but not in the English one)

URL Title :wiki


Subject:Re: Info on the “Water Margin” 108 Heroes Painting
Posted By: Tony Sun, Sep 12, 2021

Again, I really appreciate your time and kind help manuD🙏
With Google Translation, the info you provided is very helpful 😊🙏


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