Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Detail List
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Connie Sun, Oct 02, 2005

Hi,
Hope you will be able to help me with these two plates. One I have identified the markings. Found the Nippon and Symbol in my Nippon book and then the impressed mark (I went over with an erasable marker so that it could be visible) I also found to be Yamatoku. What I don't know is the style of plate. Is it Imari or Cloisonne? Seems like enamel but the impressed mark says it was made in Saga Prefecture - Arita, Imari.

Second plate, is it cloisonne or something else? Is it a lotus pattern? And what is the interpretation of the writing on the back of plate? Below the marking to the left is a red triangle with 20 inside. Also seems more like enamel paint and is trimmed in gold around the edge of plate.

Appreciate your help with this,
Connie







Subject:Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Connie Sun, Oct 02, 2005

just adding mark of second plate.

Thanks,
Connie



Subject:Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Gary Sun, Oct 02, 2005

#1. I have seen many of these plates at numerous antique fairs here in the UK...Nippon was used on all Japanese exports before 1920 so gives you some idea of dating.

#2. Carries a very early Chinese Qing dynasty mark but I would suspect it was 20th Century Japanese also.

Subject:Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Connie Sun, Oct 02, 2005

Thanks for info. Appreciate your response.

On first plate. Would you say Imari or some other style (NIPPON) plate? Heavy enameling. It has the brightly colored paint as Imari but I wasn't sure if Imari style was enameled. Maybe I am wrong about this being enamel paint.

Second plate, I thought maybe early to mid 20th Century plate. I believe Japanese from a few of the characters I've seen before. Just can't interpret.

Connie

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Gary Sun, Oct 02, 2005

No?I don't think it's Imari, at least not as I know it....looks more like Fukagawa ware!..although confusingly some of this was classed as Imari?

The second dish is marked 'Shunzhi' the first Qing Emperor...but sorry it just screams Japanese!!

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Connie Sun, Oct 02, 2005

Thanks Gary for info.

2nd plate screamed Japanese to me, as well. I thought the characters were also Japanese but you are interpreting it as Chinese? I realize that older Japanese writing was similar to Chinese characters, is there a possibility that this is a Japanese plate but more 19th Century or do you feel, definitely 20th Century. In some ways, it looks and feels like the Nippon plate I have. The only thing is the Nippon plate has stilt marks on base and the 2nd plate does not. I am interested in learning how to be more observant of the age of an item.

I really appreciate you taking the time to help me with these items and providing information.

Respectfully,
Connie

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Connie Sun, Oct 02, 2005

Hello Gary,
I began doing research after absorbing the information you provided and came across a web site with Reign Marks of the Qing ceramics or Ching Dynasty Marks. My mark was similar to the one your mentioned "Shunzhi" but wasn't it. I found my exact mark shown as "Tongzhi" 1862-1874. I then began doing further research on this mark and found that Chinese heavy polychrome enamel porcelain plates with Lotus motif was done (similar to mine) but also found that during the Tongzhi era to 1911, was marked as mine "Tongzhi" but done in a more cloisonne heavy enamel form by the Japanese who were trying to perfect this artist work. Using the Lotus also as a motif. So from what I found, it could be the Chinese polychrome enamel lotus dish or the Japanese Cloisonne heavy enamel dish, both dated late 1800's but if Japanese was made until 1911. I am guessing at this point. Early 1900's Japanese Cloisonne heavy enamel.

Do you feel that my findings are close to being correct? I am learning through information gained and research.

Appreciate your time,
Connie

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Kang Sun, Oct 02, 2005

6 char mark is purported reign mark of Chinese Emperor Tongzhi (late Victorian time frame). It isn't. Both appear Japanese and appear not quite Japanese, patterns & marks. If you see many in the UK, perhaps one may consider contemporary Chinese repro?

Hard to tell from these pictures. IMHO the second plate does not conform to J aethestics, although there are no absolutes to taste.

I try to avoid these types, both as collector and as dealer. Else I trick myself into seeing what I want to see.

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Connie Sun, Oct 02, 2005

Hello Kang,
The first plate, Nippon, I have checked and double checked. The Nippon mark has been compared and found in "The Collector's Encyclopedia of Nippon Porcelain", the impressed mark (which I used black marker to take photo of) is the same exact impressed mark shown on Gotheborg, which dates to Meiji Period, same period as Nippon. The impressed mark is not visible in photo without the magic marker.

Second plate, I am in full agreement, not Chinese form. With the research I did, I found that the Tongzhi mark was used on Japanese porcelain at the end of the Chinese period of Tongzhi until 1911 when the Japanese was trying to perfect or copy Chinese porcelain art ware. I found several sites with it listed as Japanese Tongzhi which was different than the original Chinese Tongzhi work. I wasn't trying to find anything in particular with the second plate until the information that lead me to do further research. I, too, believe reproduction of Chinese porcelain Tongzhi by the Japanese early 1900's from the plates I have found with the lotus pattern and heavy polychrome enameling. I am in full agreement with all that this is not original Chinese Tongzhi but Japanese trying to perfect the art.

Granted, I may be wrong but in comparison to many of the antique web sites I've visited all day today, this matches up to the Japanese Tongzhi Cloisonne style polychrome enameled plates that I found in my research. 20th Century Japanese Plate.

I have added 3 more pics of 2nd plate that might show it better, plus close up, and the whole back.

Thanks,
Connie







Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Gary Mon, Oct 03, 2005

Do you know I really must get theses glases fixed..:)

Of course the mark is 'Tongzhi' as you have discovered...no fooling you then!!...and yes I would agree that this is a Japanese plate copying Chinese style of manufacture probably from around the 1910 period!

Gary.

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Connie Mon, Oct 03, 2005

Thank you Gary and I know what you mean about needing better glassses, I'm always having to look twice at things.

I am glad you agree with my findings. I have researched for hours.

Best regards,
Connie

Subject:Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: fabrizio volpin Wed, May 05, 2021

this plate was made in Macau in the second half ofxx century.
maybe in 1960-1970

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: kang Mon, Oct 03, 2005

Appreciate your comments and hard work. I'm always willing to stand corrected and try to look with fresh eyes.

With Chinese porcelain, many people feel the last thing to attach importance to is the mark. May not apply to Japanese as much.

Congratulations for all the research and good luck.

Subject:Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2 Japanese Porcelain plates - Nippon & ?
Posted By: Connie Mon, Oct 03, 2005

Thank you Kang. The only way to learn is to absorb information given to me and always do more research. I always need a place to start and without your help and Gary's, I would have been lost.

Thank you both for all the great info and definitely for taking the time to assist me,
Connie


Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |