Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Reply Message
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Steffen Saabye Fri, Nov 04, 2016 IP: 87.60.72.184

These two Chinese porcelain tempel urns are believed to be from 1875-1880. Are they made by or for the Chinese population at the Strait, that is Peranakan ware ?



Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Michael O Thu, Nov 10, 2016

I do not think that these can be considered as Peranakan ware.They are not of the typical type of vessel or of the colours and motifs preferred by the Peranakan in their porcelains. A google search will provide you with many examples of typical Peranakan ware.

As far as I know, the Straits Chinese did not make porcelain. All the period Peranakan ware were imported from China in the late 19th, early 20th century.

From your one picture, I am of the opinion that these urns were made later than the dates you give (1875-1880). If you can also show the base and the insides of the urns and cover, perhaps the experts here such as Bill H and rat, can provide you more precise opinions.

Post a Reply
Name:
Email:
Group: China & Japan
Subject:
Message:
Link URL:
Enter here the complete URL of any site, page or image you would like to show other visitors.
URL Title:
Enter here the title of the link you've given above. This will appear to the visitor. Eg., if you are linking another picture, enter "Another picture". The link will not appear without a title.
Image URL:
Enter here the URL of an image if it is already uploaded on the web. The image will appear with your posting. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post.
Image: You may upload up to three images. If you would like to upload more images to this message please do so by replying to this same message.

Please make sure the file type is JPEG or GIF and the filename does not contain spaces.





Use the Browse button to find an image (jpg or gif) on a local drive on your computer to upload for including with your message. Do not upload images with file names containing spaces. Please do not upload files larger than 100 KB in size. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post. Check the "email notification" box below if you would like to be notified of any responses to your message.
Check here for email notification.
Security Code: Security Image: please enter the text appears in this image.

Please type in the code you see in the image directly above this input box.

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Steffen Saabye Fri, Nov 11, 2016

Many thanks for your answer. In fact I have two urns (or vases). I base my theory about Peranakan origin on the borders. They look very much like the borders shown in the book "Peranakan Chinese Porcelain". Tony Allen, author of books about Chinese porcelain, has seen a photo and has suggested 1875-1880 as the period of manufacture. I add photos of both urns and of the bottoms of the urns and their lids.





Subject:Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Michael O Tue, Nov 15, 2016

Peranakan ware are in fact Chinese porcelain and would contain all the auspicious Chinese symbols. As a whole, these urns do not have the characteristics of typical ware used by the Peranakan. However, I dont think it should really matter as long as they are old and if they are indeed from 1875-1880.

With all due respect to Tony Allen, I do not know how such an exact period was arrived at, which were the first years of the Guangxu reign. Looking at these pictures, my opinion is that they are of early 20th century, late Qing. (I am sorry but I think these urns look rather awful.)

I stand corrected and hopefully Mr Allen, or Bill H or rat can come in to provide their comments.

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Steffen Saabye Wed, Nov 16, 2016

Many thanks for your answer. Praise yourself lucky then that you'r not the owner of these awful urns. Do you have some sort of proof that they'r neither Peranakan nor early, but late Guangxu ? Then don't hesitate to tell all us ignorants !

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Michael O Thu, Nov 17, 2016

I did not mean any offence and I am really sorry that you take opinions this way. Taste is a subjective matter.

Please read your posting again : "These two Chinese porcelain tempel urns are believed to be from 1875-1880. Are they made by or for the Chinese population at the Strait, that is Peranakan ware ?"

You had asked a question and I was responding to it. It now seems you are not interested in any opinion that contradicts your own. You also failed to mention that the dating came from Mr Allen. You said "believed to be from 1875-1880".

What are you up to, Mr Saabye?

I live amongst Peranakans and have looked at Peranakan ware for a long time. One shared characteristic, such as the borders you see on these urns, does not make them Peranakan ware when as a whole they do not look like porcelains they would use. I am not even sure why you must insist that they are, which does not affect their value, intrinsic or otherwise, in any way.

Finally, I should say that the onus should be on you to prove that they are as what you say they are. This is all I have to say. I will stay away from offering any comments on your postings. All the best to you.

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Steffen Saabye Fri, Nov 18, 2016

Many thanks for your answer. Let's not turn a discussion into a competition about offending or believing to be offended. I have no firm opinions about Chinese porcelain. That's why I post in this forum. Please don't hesitate to make me and all other readers wiser.

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Bill H Thu, Nov 17, 2016

I commented when Steffen first inquired in October about the jar shown on the left in the upper photos here. I noted that Tony has illustrated a Guangxu vase of different form with the same "precious objects" pattern in his latest book, "Allen's Antique Chinese Porcelain - The Detection of Fakes". "Precious Objects" occupies no more of a unique place with the Straits (Peranakan) Chinese than with Chinese elsewhere as far as I know. The diaper commonly called the "Traffic Light" border is found on all sorts of late 19th-early 20th century Chinese export ware. What makes the dishes shown in the Ho Wing Meng book on Straits Chinese porcelains are the other patterns between such borders.

Steffan didn't show the base or underside of the lid in his October posting. So while the jar shown at left above might still rate a Guangxu dating, the one on the right in the same photos is no older than the 1930's, or possibly later, in my opinion. And whatever is subject of all the filth-coated pieces in the bottom images is certainly a 1930's or later product. I say this with confidence that Tony has not seen these latest images, and would hope to hear from him if this assumption is wrong.

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Steffen Saabye Fri, Nov 18, 2016

Many thanks for your answer. I find it interesting that the jars or urns or vases - I'm not sure about the correct term - are of different age. They look very much the same to me, but I'm definitely not an expert, as I'm sure you have already suspected. So they may or may not be Peranakan. We may never know ? What do you mean about 'filth' ? They are newly washed ! Can you enlighten me about how you see the difference in age ?

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Fri, Nov 18, 2016

If I may correct the opinions attributed to me.

I was sent one photograph of the left hand vase; not two, none of the bases, and none of the undersides of the lids.

Given that I had illustrated a similarly decorated vase in my latest book (Page 184), whose date of manufacture had been confirmed by the deputy director of the Jingdezhen Museum as early fourth quarter of the 19th century, I believed I was on firm ground for my reply to Steffen "Your lidded jar is decorated with a design commonly known as the “hundred antiques” and in my opinion dates to the second half of the 19th century, probably circa 1875 to 1880".

Note the word "circa", because the vases have elements of both Tongzhi (1861 to 1875) and Guangxu (1875 to 1908) design and enameling:
Traffic Light borders
Dark green crosshatch shoulder decoration.
Chinese painting perspective. Note the table legs whose rear legs are depicted as long as the front.
Bright pink famille rose enameling.

Based on these features, I believe it is reasonable to assume that these were made to Chinese taste, prior to 1891 and this is supported by the absence of export (Made in China or CHINA) marks which were required after this date. Further support for this assumption is the virtual absence of gilding, which had become very expensive and less frequently used as the century progressed.

In my opinion they are not Peranakan (Straits Chinese or Nonya wares) although there is no reason why some may have been exported there.
I believe they are Canton famille rose, enameled in Canton to porcelain bodies produced in Jingdezhen.

These do not look to me to be artificially aged, but have the smoke residue some standing in a temple or shrine.
It is not often that Bill H and I disagree, but his assessment as 1930 or later in my opinion is incorrect. China was in a state of civil war, followed by war with Japan. I ask myself why would someone make two jars in Chinese taste while there was a war on?
However, I understand the traffic light borders on the right hand vase could be confused with some decoration on jars from later periods.

I trust me comments are helpful.
Regards
Tony

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Steffen Saabye Sun, Nov 20, 2016

Many thanks. Most helpful. It was also my opinion that they are from some time in the 2nd half of the 19th century, but I couldn't come it closer on my own. Thanks again !

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Bill H Sun, Nov 20, 2016

I never argue with my guru and welcome this warranted correction with great humility.

Bill H



Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: JLim Thu, Oct 12, 2017



Old or not, those are some truly hideous vases. Not so much the Hundred Objects floating in heaven; more some cluttered teenager's bedroom.

Subject:Re: Straits or Peranakan Chinese Porcelain ?
Posted By: Steffen Saabye Fri, Oct 13, 2017

If you say so ...


Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |