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Subject:THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Sat, Apr 23, 2016 IP: 108.24.177.84

I realize this will clear up some of the questions about the Ru/Ju Kiln wares and Emperor Huizong reign. This is very important that the truth be told. For many years everyone had to rely on the pieces that are in the Qianlong Emperors collection, those pieces are very nice but they are not the real Imperial Ru/Ju ware that Emperor Huizong commissioned the Ru/Ju Kiln to produce for himself and his court. The Ru/Ju Kiln produced three types of wares. The first wares were being sold to the wealthy merchant class and these wares did not have the fire gilded bands and did not have crushed agate stone in the glaze. Any wares that had firing flaws would be sold to the population at a much cheaper price. The second wares they produced were the tribute wares that were given to the Emperor and his court as tribute. All these wares have the fire gilded bands that are around the rim and base and sometimes only the rim. These bands have extensive layered cuprite and malachite corrosion that only occurs in nature and cannot be faked. (From the book Copper and bronze in art by David Scott The existence of malachite formation over a layer of cuprite is supported by analytical and metallographic studies, is a good indication of the authenticity of an artifact.) These tribute wares had several colors and many forms and did not have crushed agate in the glaze. One of the tribute pieces is marked Feng Wang a tribute to the Emperor, these are not the commissioned pieces because the emperor would never give tribute to himself. The third wares they produced were the Imperial wares that Emperor Huizong commissioned the Ru/Ju Kiln to produce for him and his court. Emperor Huizong was unhappy with all the opulent tribute wares he was receiving from several kilns and also the Ru/Ju Kiln opulent tribute wares. These tribute wares were too flamboyant with the fire gilded bands and their opulent forms and colors. Emperor Huizong was an artist and a modest man and he saw beauty in simplicity. Emperor Huizong must have had some contact with the Korean Koryo Dynasty celadon wares because the color he chose and glaze is similar to the Koryo celadon wares. Emperor Huizong decided to commission the Ru/Ju Kiln because they were producing the finest wares.The Imperial commissioned wares are not opulent like the merchant or tribute wares they are very understated and have modest and refined forms with only one color Celadon, and they have texture from the crushed agate stone that was put into their mix. Agate melts at 2912 degrees F and the Song dynasty kilns temperature only reached 1250 degrees F at best, so this is a fallacy that the crushed agate melted in the glaze, also it would be very difficult to crush agate into a complete powder this is why you can clearly see traces of the agate stone in the glaze using a 20x loupe or better. The Prototypes the foot rings were glazed and you can see spur marks, Emperor Huizong did not like the spur marks so he requested they remove them, so they stopped glazing the foot rings and the final version was fired flat in the kiln. Many have marks scratched on the bases like Feng Hua I believe this is a tribute for China and also other marks. Emperor Huizong had a vision to produce wares that would be very understated, refined, and modest and look like they were formed from jade stone. It did not matter if a piece had flaws, because each piece has its own character. Any flawed pieces would be distributed to the court and no pieces were sold to anyone other than the court. The Emperor was a modest man and saw each piece as individual piece, and even if they had flaws, he saw beauty. Almost like human beings with all their flaws, they are beautiful. It is very apparent that Emperor Huizong worked very closely with the Ru/Ju Kiln to develop these Imperial wares. The Ru/Ju Kiln certainly fulfilled the Emperor’s vision and produced these wonderful wares exclusively for the Emperor and his Court. Also I have attached photos that you can see on this Imperial Ru ware Vase they did not crush the agate stone enough, the glaze has tiny holes caused by the agate, the foot ring you can see a drip of glaze that has chips of agate. All of this is clear conclusive evidence that these are the true Imperial Ru ware that Emperor Huizong commissioned the Ru/Ju Kiln to produce for him and his court. First photo the first three rows are Tribute Ru Ware. The forth row is the Imperial Ru ware that Emperor Huizong produce.







Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Sun, Apr 24, 2016

The first two photos first two rows show Ru Kiln merchant ware. The third photo shows the cuprite and malachite on the fire gild band on the Ru kiln tribute ware for more info go to chinesemasterpieces.com








URL Title :chinesemasterpieces.com


Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: TD Mon, Apr 25, 2016

Joseph,
You showed these to a Bonhams rep and he said he couldn't sell these because they're not old.

My question for you is: where did you get these supposed imperial Ruyao from the Northern Song?

They don't have the quality of genuine Ruyao nor do they look old to me.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Mon, Apr 25, 2016

Go to my website at chinesemasterpieces.com and read the introduction and the home page. and you will understand that the person at Bonhams never handled A Ruyao piece in his life. The Palace Museum believe they are from the Song Dynasty. You Can't fake The cuprite and malachite corrosion on the Ru Tribute wares. No one controlling this market wants to admit the are not being honest with collectors about what is truly available in the market place. All the Ru Ware in museums around the world is Ru Kiln merchant ware and most are flawed pieces. which would have been sold to population very cheap. They are afraid to come clean with collectors because of the all money involved. This will soon change.

URL Title :chinesemasterpieces.com


Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: TD Tue, Apr 26, 2016

Then show them to Nicolas Chow at Sotheby's who recently sold a Ru washer for millions. Surely he/they must be interested in earning millions more in commission from the sale of your collection if the pieces are deemed genuine.


Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Wed, Apr 27, 2016

I don't do business with Sothebys. I know that they're period pieces. Thank you for your interest.

URL Title :chinesemasterpieces.com


Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: pipane Sun, May 01, 2016

Sorry these are not old, glaze aspect, bottom, marks are consistent with modern productions. Some have been artificially aged, some (the sky bleue ones are just modern production (not really made to fool collectors beside the period style).

Old Ru ware doesn't look like this. I handled a few.

There is a fantastic Ru ware exhibition going on right now at beijing gugong museum...



Best regards,
P.



Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Mon, May 02, 2016

Sorry you are totally wrong they can't reproduced the cuprite and malachite corrosion on the ru tribute wares. (From the book copper and bronze in art by David Scott The existence of malachite formation over a layer of cuprite is supported by analytical and metallographic studies, is a good indication of the authenticity of an artifact.) As far as the bottoms they have the correct sesame seed size and shape spur marks and the foot ring are correct also the crackle and glaze is correct. The true Imperial Ru ware the foot ring are unglazed they were fired flat in the kiln and there all the same color celadon. Go to my website you'll see better photos so you can get a close look. Chinesemasterpieces.com The piece that you are showing is really in poor condition not a good example of Ru ware. Good luck to you

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: pipane Sat, May 07, 2016

Yes of course...

So be it, as a matter of fact it is not the first time I have been hearing this song.

Congratulations.

(So you got more ru ware than chinese national collection and in better condition, how lucky...and of course you know better than Sotheby's, national museum experts and most professionals on this forum all together by reading a book about ru ware. What in that story doesn't ad up?)

May be you could tell us more about their provenance ? I guess it took you many years to complete this fabulous collection.

You may contact the Baur fondation in Geneva ? Suiss people have a reputation of honesty...


Ps. ru ware marks are usually engraved...not molded.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: pipane Sat, May 07, 2016

Hello there,

In second thought let's take this problem the other way around can we? What if I could source those for you in let's say 24 hours ? (I live in Beijing China)

I can this very afternoon find your ru wares at panjiayuan "antiques" market, even the one with the marking and same aging (yes, the one than can not possibly be faken)...the neat ones too and may be the strange all too modern pillow...would you buy them from me ? A real good bargain.

And don't worry I am quite lucky generally speaking.


Best Regards,
Pip.

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Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Corey Fri, May 06, 2016

Pipane, may I ask on what occasions you have handled genuine Ru ware and if you have knowledge in this field? I hold a pair of celadon mallow-petal washers with millet shaped spur-marks, that I think may come from one of the recently discovered ru kilns.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Sat, May 07, 2016

Hello Pipane
I can only show you and try to teach you something. I wish you the best of luck

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: pipane Tue, Jun 14, 2016

@Corey

Feel free to send your pictures at [email protected]

I don't pretend to be the expert on Ru ware but I can certainly spot most good fakes and eventually get to a thrue expert to get a definitive opinion.

I told you there was a fantastic ru ware exhibition organized by gugong museum recently witch I visited with local experts. (not being able to "handle" those personally of course).

I also had the opportunity to look into great collections before that here in China, some including one or two ru ware pieces, plus numerous broken samples of ru ware ...

Best Regards,
P.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Wed, Jun 15, 2016

Pipane
I'm the foremost expert in Northern Song Dynasty Ru Ware right now in the world. I have collected a hoard of Ru wares and have handled more than any expert or scholar in the world They are all welcome to examine my collection first hand and I well share with them my research. for more info check my website at chinesemasterpieces.com

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: pipane Thu, Jun 16, 2016

Man, I feel sorry to tell you that you are wrapping yourself in your own delusion... (is that even English?sorry for that too)

I checked your website, please excuse me for being straight-forward :l

Your golden ornamented ru ware are just light years away from looking genuine... They are just so-so fake, think a minute, ceramic development his well documented in China, gold artwork too, the major auction house pieces you are criticizing on your website are consistent with records and old collections from National museums such as palace museum and many others... And consistent with archeological findings, yours are not.

Are you telling us that empor Huizong would commission incorrect markings on his imperial ware? It make no sense at all when you know Chinese culture and Chinese love for calligraphy. It is like saying Japanese would disrespect their emperor.

Another exemple your ding ware doesn't show the right "song ding" color and glaze aspect, (white color that differentiate "song" ding from "liao" ding... bottom don't show evidence of ancient firering technology... How do you explain that?

Beside I also specialize in archaic jades, same thing, jade art pieces is a long a continuous development, very well documented, from carving techniques to style, etc... Jade are excavated every year from major archeological sites... All are consistent with each historical periods and historical records (and museums collections). Yours don't. They are just plain modern copies, not even good ones (obviously if one can spot it from pictures alone).

Even jade type is not right, they also show characteristic chemical treatment aging... Old ones just don't look like that...

At last my questions for you will be, what do you reckon your jades and ceramics origin is? What price where they acquired from? Where have you learn how to differentiate genuine and modern copies? Through your readings, from academic studies? From antiquities experts? How come Han jades and later jades in your collection look similar from jade type to carving techniques to aging process ? How come you're the only one believing they are authentic antiquities ?


Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Sun, Jun 19, 2016

The Chinese people have been collecting for thousands of years.They passed down their collection to the next generation. Now that China has opened up many fine pieces have reached the market place. The fire gilded bands in my collection can not be faked because they are corroded with layer Cuprite and Malachite(From the book Copper and bronze in art by David Scott The existence of malachite formation over a layer of cuprite is supported by analytical and metallographic studies, is a good indication of the authenticity of an artifact.) LOOK IT UP. It's more reliable than a TL test. Its very apparent your knowledge about jade is very limited. There are no chemicals that will penetrate nephrite jade to create burial inclusions because jade is a fibrous material. It takes a very long time being buried for the elements in the ground to seep into the jade material to create burial inclusions. They have been dying jades from the Ming dynasty but the dye can't penetrate the stone because its fibrous, the dye just lays on top. Jadeite can be dyed it's not a fibrous stone. As far as the Ding Ware in my collection they have the fire gilded bands that are corroded with layered cuprite and malachite. The clay they used had a very low iron content that's why they do not turn brown after firing. Some pieces show a slight pink cast in the biscuit.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: pipane Tue, Jun 21, 2016

So be it.

A little thin a argument don't you think?
What make you think modern craftsmans can't and will never be able to produce this simple layer of corroded culprite?

One can reasonably think they already do.

As for jades, sorry but I don't have the luxury of time to respond to every lunatic with its own theories and blunt affirmations about what is archaic jades.

-Of course jade can be dyed, (like hetian jade shan Liao to sell it as Heliao), but in many ways... There is dyed jade everywhere I look on the jade market.
Google it.

If you choose to ignore this advice so be it too...

Regards,
P.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Wed, Jun 22, 2016

Because Cuprite layered with Malachite on top can only be produced in nature. That's why it is proof that my collection is from the Song Dynasty and even the National Palace museum agreed. To many people don’t take the time to educate themself and they spew out false rumors without facts to back them up. As far as Jade is concerned It's a fact they cannot reproduce burial inclusion that penetrate the jade such as rivers, veins, clouding, russet, calcification, inclusions, or the greenish color when jade is buried with bronze, In Nephrite Jade this can't be done with dyes or chemicals. and if they tried they would stick out like a sore thumb. Nephrite jade is a tough fibrous aggregate stone it's scratch resistant it can't be scratch with a steel knife. You must check the surface ware and the tool marks with a loupe these things all help to identify ancient and archaic pieces. Many people are afraid to buy jade because people spread rumors about dying and chemicals and believe they can fake anything, that's just not true. There is different qualities of nephrite jade and the more translucent jades are the finest. Just remember it's a slow process to create burial inclusions there's only one way to cheat bury the piece and hope you live longer than any man on earth.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: pipane Tue, Sep 20, 2016

Please educate me...

You are stating that "even the palace museum agreed". Agreed to what? Where, when? Are you sure? Do you have proof, acknowledgement from them that...?

Doubt that they agreed your ceramics are from song dynasty as you suggest.

Wish you good.

Regards
P.




Subject:THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Thu, Sep 22, 2016

After several emails and photos back and forth The Palace Museum was afraid to change the direction of not showing the public the real Imperial northern Song Dynasty Imperial Ru ware to the world that was hoarded away. This is just another cover-up that the auction house and Museums are afraid to show because of all the money involved. What you see in Museums is not the finest pieces that the Chinese produced. Go to my web site and you will learn the truth at Chinesemasterpieces.com Below is the last email they sent me. And they clearly agreed they are from the Song Dynasty.

October 28, 2015

Dear Mr. Sharon,

Thank you very much for your letter dated October 19, 2015 expressing your willingness to sell some of your Song ceramic vases to us. The National Palace Museum greatly appreciates your wish to enrich our existing collections.

However, it is with much regret that we have to inform you that the artworks you have included in your email do not line up with the exhibition direction of the National Palace Museum. We therefore are not able to acquire the pieces that you have kindly offered.

Thank you again for your interest in the National Palace Museum. We look forward to your understanding on this matter and wish you every success.

Sincerely,

National Palace Museum

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Sat, Sep 24, 2016

October 29, 2015
Hello National Palace Museum,
I'm sorry you may have misunderstood my request, I do not wish to sell the National Palace Museum my Song Dynasty ceramic vases. I wish to donate / contribute them to the National Palace Museum. My attorney may have confused the issue, I only wish to give / donate these Song Dynasty Ru wares at no cost to the National Palace Museum.
Please contact me.
Sincerely Yours,
Joseph Sharon

October 30, 2015

Dear Mr. Sharon,

Our sincerest apologies for the misunderstanding and thank you again for your email expressing your wish to enrich the National Palace Museum's collection.

However, it is still with much regret that we have to inform you that the Song Dynasty ceramic vases you
have included in your email do not line up with the exhibition direction of the National Palace Museum. We are therefore unable to honor your wish to donate the artworks to us.

Thank you for your interest in the National Palace Museum. We look forward to your understanding on this matter and wish you every success.

Best regards,
National Palace Museum

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Corey Mon, Sep 26, 2016

I forgot to follow up on this thread. The washers I have, pictured below, are definitely old. Possibly even older than song dynasty, but of course most likely some other kind of celadon ware for example yueyao or xingyao. Pretty much everything about them points in the direction of ruyao though. But then again they only have super-high value if they are truly imperial pieces. For the scientific analysis regarding their identification I will stick to the methods described in the article linked to below. Thank you!

http://en.chinaculture.org/classics/2013-10/05/content_488582.htm







Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Corey Sun, Oct 22, 2017

Just adding a couple of notes to myself regarding the pair of washers I have since I just stumpled upon an identical washer available at a Japanese auction where it is not described as antique (lot no. 1006):

http://iaykauction.com/catalog/yka24_1001/yka24_1001.html#p=4

The washers I have were also purchased from a Japanese dealer and were dated to the Ming dynasty (I got both genuine period pieces, antique and semi-antique copies, as well as modern fakes in from this dealer).

After researching it appears to me that they are most likely Yue ware of the Tang dynasty. Secondly ru ware (ruzhou) or possibly guan ware of the Song dynasty (the shape of the foot ring is similar to those found on heirloom ru washers). third option would be yaozhou in which case their age could range from Tang or five dynasties to the Ming dynasty.

I particularly find this fine Yue washer (pictured below) interesting because it compares well with the color, the crackle, the millet seed shaped spur marks, and especially the prolific tiny black spots (firing spots?):

http://blog1.poco.cn/myBlogDetail-htx-id-8853872-userid-54818241-pri--n-0.xhtml

Also a link with a wide selection of pictures of the excavated ru pieces:

https://bbs.artron.net/thread-1713485-1-1.html



Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: David. F Sat, Dec 03, 2016

Dear Joseph, I'm a dealer and also collector for the ceramic pieces from all period for almost 30 years. I was lived at Taiwan for almost 20 years, and went to China and Hong Kong very often for business purpose, but I was born in Indonesia, so here we are back to my country. Your Ru ware it's very interested to me, also some is look authentic from long distance to me, the other seems must have a close examination, but all is looks great, even some pieces is out of my knowledge. Congratulation for have these treasure. Best regards, David

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Tue, Dec 13, 2016

Thank you for your kind words David. You can get more information at my website Chinesemasterpieces.com

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Alfred Fri, Feb 03, 2017

Hello Mr. Sharon

I just found your website and posts on the forum.

It's a bit late now but seriously it's a joke or you're really serious?



Also MODERN copy that can be found on the markets of Beijing or on EBAY.



I'm asking you one question the same as Pipanne.

What is the origin of your objects ?


Bonhams was absolutely right

Sincerly Alfred

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Sat, Feb 04, 2017

Hello Alfred
it's certainly not a Joke. If you think everything you see is modern because the auction houses are telling you that, your being naive. Everything on ebay is not modern. All I will tell you is my pieces came directly from China. I will not give away my sources it's no ones business. All people can not partake in auctions in China Or America. Since China has opened up many fine piece have reached the market place. You must know what your looking at when you purchase anything. I can tell you did not read my entire site I show example after example of masterpieces that put to shame some of the pieces that the auction houses claim to be so rare and fine and are selling for very large sums of money. If you think that the only real pieces are being sold at the auction houses I certainly can't convince you to believe what I'm showing you. You have your right to your opinion that's fine with me.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: richard severson Fri, Oct 13, 2017

Joseph - I know your right and Thank you for making this great website and videos, Auction houses are all in the same bed together, I will have the same trouble with them on my Shang dynasty bronzes, I do appreciate your hard work and collection - just wanted to say Thank you - rich

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: Joseph Sharon Fri, Oct 13, 2017

Richard,thank you for your comment.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: JLim Fri, Oct 13, 2017



This thread is hideous. It is almost as bad as that endless Hongshan thread. Honestly, the only effect will be to degrade this site's usefulness and lead novice collectors astray. Such threads should not exist.

Subject:Re: THE RU/JU KILN PRODUCED THREE TYPES OF IMPORTANT WARES
Posted By: M Thu, Nov 02, 2017

WHEN did your pieces came directly from China?

WHEN did you acquire your first piece of Ru ware?


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