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Subject:Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Stan Wed, May 03, 2006 IP: 24.128.45.90

Folks,

Below is a snuff bottle. I've heard of purple or lavender jade. Is this an example? At the lower right of the snuff bottle is a bit of green color. A steel pin doesn't appear to scratch the bottom.

What of the iconography? There is a cow/ox/deer headed left looking back/up at a stork in a pine tree (in a lighter layer of stone at the upper right). The cow's breath swirls up to the stork. The bole of the tree is behind the cow but not very visible in the pictures. By lighting from behind (2nd picture), I can show the carving better. Is this a standard myth or the inspiration of the artist?

The actual color is closer to the first picture. Is there any way to guess the age of a stone snuff bottle?

Thanks,
Stan





Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Wed, May 03, 2006

This could be lavender jade, and it could be natural (not dyed). On the other hand, it also could be glass. Then there is a certain quartz with that color. This is an item one has to see close up.
The animals etc. are Taoist and/or Buddhist symbols. You can find the interpretation in the internet. The carving is rather modern.
Ernest

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Stan Thu, May 04, 2006

Ernest,

It's not amethyst. I thought it might be fluorite but it is harder (fluorite has a hardness of 4). I don't believe it is glass. The snuff cavity is not well hollowed. If it were a glass fake, likely the cavity would be larger. Plus, it doesn't look like glass.

If you have a pointer to the interpretation you mentioned, I'd appreciate it. My search wasn't very rewarding.

I also thought the carving was modern but my eye is not very practiced.

Thanks,
Stan

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Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Thu, May 04, 2006

http://www.gotheborg.com/glossary/glossaryindex.htm?http://www.gotheborg.com/glossary/data/animalfigures.shtml

Look with a very strong light at the surface, trying to see small crystals. If you see them, and they have a good reflection...no jade. If they look like they just about touch the surface, almost no reflection, then you got the real item. Look inside of the bottle, if the drill hole shows markings from the drill bit. If not, it could be poured. If it is jade, you still don't know if the color is natural...
Ernest


Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Stan Tue, May 09, 2006

Ernest,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. It was a busy weekend.

Thanks for the pointer to the animal symbols site. It seems that the deer and stork in a pine tree are both symbols of longevity. Plus, the deer is also a success symbol. I guess it is my lucky snuff bottle.

Also the test for jade is very useful. When we say jade, are we talking nephrite? Is your test for nephrite? Jadeite? Both?

From your description I think it is not jade - but it is a close call. I could go either way. It might have a fine crystal structure. Of course, I ran and pulled out all the objects that (I think) are nephrite and jadeite and had a look. I need a more practiced eye - and an expert's help. I may have to rethink what some of our other snuff bottles and things are.

It is stone. It has internal fissures that would be difficult to fake with a poured object.

Thanks for all your help,
Stan

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Wed, May 10, 2006

Stan
The test is for jadeite, because that bottle, if it is jade, could not be nephrite. Only jadeite has that colour.
Ernest

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: njg Thu, May 04, 2006

I think the stone is agate. The decoration, nothing obvious springs to mind.
Stork, longevity.

That which the stork is standing on, the "wheels"
is a type of decoration I've only seen on Japanese art used in this manner?

Nicl

Lovely colour


Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Daniel Thu, May 04, 2006

Looks rather like amethyst and rose quartz than jade.

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Stan Thu, May 04, 2006

Daniel,

It is not amethyst. The first picture below is an amethyst snuff bottle. Actually, it is amethyst at the top transitioning to smoky quartz at the bottom. The front is milky quartz. Obviously, it is carved from a piece of a geode. The milky quartz is carved with a river scene with 4 people in a boat on curling waves in the foreground, a bird, cliff, cloud and the moon in the background. Any thoughts on this scene?

It is not rose quartz because it is purple. The second picture is a rose quartz snuff bottle. It is our smallest snuff bottle at a scant 2 inches tall. It is carved in a floral motif (two tulips).

Cheers,
Stan





Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: njg Thu, May 04, 2006

The only other iconography I can glean from the piece is the wheels and deer.

Buddhism's dhrama wheel was alledgedly started in the deer park at Sarnath by the Buddha.

During the Ching a number of jades of Hindustani influence were made.

The cow, the divine cow.

Nick




Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Stan Tue, May 09, 2006

Nick,

Thanks for your expertise. I thought there might be a well known (by other than me) fable, story, or myth. The scene seemed an odd juxtaposition of critters.

Stan

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: njg Wed, May 10, 2006

The World of Jade ISBN 0-517-10244-7

Page 112 shows a figure of Xi Wang Mu, similar in colour with green, as your scent bottle.
The material in the figure in the book is jadeite, which when tested, it's hardness should be about 7 on the Mohs scale. A number of the jadites in the book also exhibit similar colour characteristics.

Nick


Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Stan Thu, May 11, 2006

Nick,

Damn! I swore I wasn't going to get interested in jade...but I need the background for collecting snuff bottles. Right? I'll probably buy the book. I'm overdue for an Amazon order anyway.

Thanks,
Stan

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Thu, May 11, 2006

Stan
Perhaps you got bitten by the jade devil. The deeper meaning is that you will spend all your money on jade.
Another victim - - Ernest

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: njg Sat, May 13, 2006

The best place to read about the usages of jade is the 5 Classics.
Dame Una Pope Hennessey writes well on jades.
Chinese Art by Phaidon isbn 0 7148 2008 3 contains a decent section on jades.

A really good way to see the older jades is to collect the older Spink and Sons catalogue's. End of WW 1 and the number of sales of jades escalates. They also show stands, cinnabar, cameo glass and are good indicators to fakes.
Probably 100% of the "jades" were sacked from Peking. The major problem with the catalogues is they date most items to to Kiang Hsi period when quite clearly a number are as old as the Sung dynasty. A number are clearly Xuande.
We've come on a bit in a 100 years.

Nick










Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: njg Sun, May 14, 2006

Ernest

Are you related to Richard Wilhelm.

Nick


Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Sun, May 14, 2006

Stan
Do me a favour, hold the "jade" snuff bottle against a strong light. Let it shine onto the bottle. Look at the colour, then let that light shine through the bottle, and tell me what the color difference is. Same colour, change in colour, darker or lighter, ( with the light behind it).
Ernest

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Stan Mon, May 15, 2006

Ernest,

I think the first two pictures above show that. The first picture is pretty true to the purple color. It may be a shade darker than the bottle. The second picture was taken with a spotlight shining through the bottle. I'll check tonight to see if that rose color is true. It isn't a photographic quality spot and has a yellow component to the light.

Cheers,
Stan

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: [email protected] Mon, May 15, 2006

Ernest,

I did the experiment you requested. The second photo above is not the correct color.

With the light shining on it, the color is lavender, a shade lighter than the first picture above. With the light behind shining through it, it is lavender but a shade lighter than with the light shining on it. So, to answer your question, it is lighter with the light shining through it.

Cheers,
Stan

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Mon, May 15, 2006

Again, if it is jade, natural colour, then the light from behind should be at least as strong as the colour with the light shining on it.However, if it is a artificial colour, it is normally quite a bit lighter with the light from behind. I am still not sure. Specific gravity !! It must be app. 3.3.
Ernest


Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Stan Thu, May 18, 2006

I tried to get a close up of the green spot. This is the best I could do. I don't know if this helps.

Cheers,
Stan



Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Thu, May 18, 2006

Stan
Since seeing your last picture, I am now 99% sure that it is indeed jadeite. The reason is that small spot of green, it is just right. I therefore believe that the lavender is the natural colour.
Ernest

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Stan Fri, May 19, 2006

Ernest,

Glad to hear it (and my wife will be, too!). That is my favorite jade(ite) snuff bottle based on color alone. Though, on some days, that goldfish pond one (I sent you a picture in an email) will edge it out.

Thanks for your help. I hope I can return the favor some time.

Cheers,
Stan

Subject:Re: Lavender Jade (?) Snuff Bottle
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Mon, Aug 17, 2020

An uncle of mine was Richard Wilhelm
Daughter Lieselotte Wilhelm.
Remscheid, Germany
Ernest


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