Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Reply Message
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Tue, Dec 04, 2018 IP: 2600:1700:9680:ca40:

I have spent days researching this mark and need some help.

I think I have identified the correct characters, but the translation escapes me! These are some of the possibilities that I have come up with:

Image of Shimazu Crest – gilt cross inside red circle

大日本 Great Japan or made in Japan

金光山 Kinkozan and Konkozan 金光山 , jisho.org said, Japanese “Gonkōzan” English “Kanemitsu”

充月画 I assume this to be the artists name, but I can not find his name anywhere. The people on this forum are so smart in the way they can piece together and give meaning to each of the strokes. After input from 4 different online Japanese to English translators, I am very puzzled by the numerous possibilities.

I am additionally confused, and find it a bit too coincidental, that my vase looks very very similar to pottery with the signature of Hodota/ Hododa 保土田. No other Satsuma, that I can find, looks like my vase. This made possible sense when I read on Gotheborg.com. “the Hodota signature is a late Edo / Meiji period Yokohama merchant name and not that of any particular studio or pottery family name.” An 1890 trading card, found in one of your forums, advertises “T. Hododa” “Dealer and Manufacturer of Satsuma Porcelain” “Yokohama Japan”. So…… Could the artist of my vase have been an independent Japanese artist that may have painted some pieces for Hododa, but also worked on his own? There has to be a reason my vase only looks like pieces with Hododa’s mark, any ideas?

I would really appreciate your amazing knowledge! I do love this vase and I have always appreciated the work and detail that went into making it. I also would appreciate knowing if there is any value in it.

Thank you so much for your time!





Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martin Michels Wed, Dec 05, 2018

Hallo Martha,

1st Column (right), indeed Dai Nippon.
2nd Column (middle): Kinkozan, mark of the Kinkozan factory, Kinkozan marks have 2 variations: 金光山 and 錦光山.
3th Column (left): Shogetsu 松月 Ga 画 (painted by Shogetsu). I have not found any information about Shogetsu. But in his heydays Kinkozan had about 200 people working for him, most of them excellent painters with little writing skills.

However, I have a mark in my Japanese marks collection almost indentical to yours, see picture. As you can see, the character for Ga 画 (painted) is not quite as it should be, looks like the Shimazu Crest.
But the 1st character of Shogetsu is clearer here.

Regards,
Martin.




Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Fri, Dec 07, 2018

Thank you sooooo much!! Bless you. I have been checking back several times a day in hopes someone would have the knowledge & the time to answer.

I am going to research the artist name today & will post what I discover.

I am truly grateful for your time & thank you.

Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Fri, Dec 07, 2018

Martin,

I just took a closer look at the mark you shared from your database. It does look almost identical to the mark on my vase in every way except the bottom left character - including red & gilt coloring, shape, placement and even lines between column’s. Is this unusual?

I would be very interested to see what the piece which bears your mark looks like.

Do you think there is any significance or know why the Shimazu Crest is represented in your mark?

Thanks,
Martha

Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Fri, Dec 07, 2018

Found the item to which your mark belongs. Unfortunately, I have not found out much else, but this is a start.

















Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: mikeoz Wed, Dec 05, 2018

The first character in the third column is 松 not 充。

Try again for the artist's name.

Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Fri, Dec 07, 2018

Thank you, Mike, for your help!

I am researching right now and will post what I find about him.

Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martin Michels Sun, Dec 09, 2018

Dear Martha,

I do not have pictures from the piece where my mark came from. I just collect Japanese antique ceramic marks, but without the items itself.

Your new pictures did not show, unfortunatly.

I have tried to find out more about the painter Shogetsu, but didn't find anything, even not on Japanese sites. However, you can find a lot about Kinkozan. But if you find more about Hogetsu, please share your findings.
Regards,
Martin.

Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Mon, Dec 10, 2018

Martin,

Thank you for all you help!!

I found two pieces with your mark! But none with my mark. This is what I wrote down for the mark, but understand I am very new to this.
Dai Nippon, Kinkozan 金光山, Shogetsu 松月 (signed vase, Meiji period) I will try to down load again.

Do you know why the Shimazu Crest would be used in your mark? Is it common for names to be so similar because your mark is the closest I have found to mine.

When I posted my response I got a generic message stating, because of spam, my response will be reviewed before being posted. I thought the pictures had been removed by the reviewer, or I would have tried again.

Will post the second one next.

Martha























Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Mon, Dec 10, 2018

Martin,

I think this is the exact item from which your mark came. It came from a website in Japan.

After getting your input, I put this in a google search and got this hit: 大日本 金光山 松月

Martha





Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Mon, Dec 10, 2018

This is the only hit I got for artist of my vase.

Did artists work for different studios? Because artist writes his name exactly as the artist's name as on my vase.

Discription said, "Made by Jitsuzo and painted by Shogetsu".

Any input is greatly appreciated!!!!

Martha











Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martin Michels Tue, Dec 11, 2018

Dear Martha,

In "my" mark it looks as if the Shimazu crest is not only on the top of the cartouche, but also in the left bottom corner. This last one is just a writing error of the person who painted this signature, it had to be the "Ga" character 画 (meaning "painted by"). Remember, most of the common Japanese people could hardly write in that time, so mistakes happened. As another example, I have a Hichozan Shinpo Zo mark in my database, written as HiTOzan Shinpo Zo.

And yes, pottery painters worked for several potters. Kinkozan had a lot of painters working for him (I already have 9 different names), some also working for others. I have numerous examples in my database.

Shogetsu worked apparently for Kinkozan as well for Choshuzan 長州山. Here is a picture of that mark as catalogued my database. "Mi 實 Zo 造 Saku 作" (Not Jitsuzo, Bonhams Auctions translated the mark wrong) is "Mi 實 made 造 work 作". "Mi" is the abbreviation for "Mibae in" 實生院 ( Mibae studio). The bottom character is also "Mi" and is the logo on all work made by members of Mibea In.

Japanese names can have 2 pronouncings: ON-reading (Sino Japanese) and KUN-reading (native Japanese). Example: 山 in a name can be "yama" (KUN) or "zan"/"san" (ON). So can 實 mean "mi" or "minoru" (KUN) and "jitsu" or "shitsu" (ON). Unfortunately, the Google translator don't always give the correct translation of the Japanese Kanji characters.

Greetings,
Martin.



Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Wed, Dec 12, 2018

Martin,

I have found TWO objects having the mark which places the Shimazu Crest in the left bottom corner. Thus, I do not think it is a mistake.

Since my photos keep mysteriously disappearing, I am going to just download the two marks & not the object it is on. If that works, I will once again try downloading photo of the object.

The artist Shogetsu also used the Shimazu Crest in decorating a bowl I found. Not sure if that is an indicator of anything, but was it ok for just anybody to use the Shimazu Crest, or was its use reserved for a certain class of people?











Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Thu, Dec 13, 2018

Martin,

Have removed spaces in file title & will see if it works!

As I said before, I have found TWO objects having the mark which places the Shimazu Crest in the left bottom corner. Thus, I do not think it is a mistake.

The artist Shogetsu also used the Shimazu Crest in decorating a bowl I found. Not sure if that is an indicator of anything, but was it ok for just anybody to use the Shimazu Crest, or was its use reserved for a certain class of people?

Martha





Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martha Roberts Tue, Dec 11, 2018

Once again, my pictures are not visible.

Is there some "rule" I do not know about that would cause the pictures to be removed?

I will try again & see what happens.

Martha

Post a Reply
Name:
Email:
Group: China & Japan
Subject:
Message:
Link URL:
Enter here the complete URL of any site, page or image you would like to show other visitors.
URL Title:
Enter here the title of the link you've given above. This will appear to the visitor. Eg., if you are linking another picture, enter "Another picture". The link will not appear without a title.
Image URL:
Enter here the URL of an image if it is already uploaded on the web. The image will appear with your posting. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post.
Image: You may upload up to three images. If you would like to upload more images to this message please do so by replying to this same message.

Please make sure the file type is JPEG or GIF and the filename does not contain spaces.





Use the Browse button to find an image (jpg or gif) on a local drive on your computer to upload for including with your message. Do not upload images with file names containing spaces. Please do not upload files larger than 500 KB in size. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post. Check the "email notification" box below if you would like to be notified of any responses to your message.
Check here for email notification.
Security Code: Security Image: please enter the text appears in this image.

Please type in the code you see in the image directly above this input box.

Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martin Michels Wed, Dec 12, 2018

Picture rules:
- Make sure the file type is JPEG or GIF
- The filename may not contain spaces.
- Do not upload pictures larger than 500 KB in size.
- Maximum 3 pictures per message.
Regards,
Martin.

Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martin Michels Fri, Dec 14, 2018

Martha,

Looking at the 2 marks with the double Shimazu crests, there is indeed a similarity in both marks. So there are 2 possiblities:
1) Shogetsu made the same mistake with drawing a Shimazu crest instead of the "Ga" 画 (painted by) character, or
2) He put the extra crest to have 3 columns of 3 characters (but then again, why not "Ga" as the painter).
I think we will never know.
One of the 2 pictures has Kinkozan in the middle, the other Choshuzan, but written in a different way: 上州山 instead of normally: 長州山.
上 means Jo or Sho in ON-reading. Since there is the big mark (see above) in gold with Shogetsu and Choshuzan, Shogetsu has worked for CHoshuzan.

My theory: The mark with golden characters was not made by Shogetsu, but by someone of the Mibae studio, since most of the marks I have of Mibae in gold were made with the same precision as the one here. The other brown marks were made by Shogetsu, who was an excellent painter, but with a limited knowledge of the Kanji characters. Most common Japanese people, specially in that time, knew only a limited number of Kanji.
If my theory is correct? I don't know.
Perhaps some other language experts may add their opinion, I hope.
Greetings,
Martin.

Subject:Re: Satsuma Vase Identifying Marks
Posted By: Martin Michels Fri, Dec 14, 2018

P.S.

In addition: about the name 上州山 as written here.
As I wrote before 上 means "Jo" or "Sho", so you get: Joshuzan of Shoshuzan. However, each name together with "Satsuma", give hardly any hits on Google, "Choshuzan Satsuma" about 21000.
Shoshuzan sounds the same as Choshuzan, so I'm pretty sure the name was intended as Choshuzan.
Martin.


Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |