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Subject:Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Brandon mccloskey Tue, Dec 12, 2017 IP: 173.191.104.106

Picked this up a while ago and thought it wasn't anything special but recently I had seen one very very similar sell for quite a substantial amount of money. I was just wondering if anyone could tell me about it, its age, where its from, its value. etc. You might start to see me post a lot on here, I have quite a collection of Asian antiques (mainly Japanese) that I've picked up and dont know a whole lot about other than that they are old, anyway Hi, guys. I'm Brandon, 30 yo, from Pa.







Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Endre Wed, Dec 13, 2017

These rose medallion pieces were mass produced for the US market in the last five decades of the 19th century. Many governmental people and families of the upper crust had ordered very large services of over a hundred pieces. Grant ordered his in the 1860s. Some documented services do carry the made in China mark beginning in 1890s. I think that your cup has a Mellon shape medallion and your tray features precious objects. I’m not an expert of course, and hopefully someone can comment more on the details. Best wishes

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: BILL H Thu, Dec 14, 2017

Just a comment on nomenclature. This pattern was produced contemporaneously with Rose Medallion but doesn't exactly fit the mold of Rose Medallion and its several variant patterns. Notably, most but not all of the pieces in a set of Rose Medallion (basic sets contained about 150 pieces) would have had alternating reserves containing either butterfly and bird-filled garden motifs or genre scenes of figures in Mandarin or other historic dress. The earliest Rose Medallion, in production during the 1850's, features reserves shaped like a center slice of melon, while later variations of the Scroll Motive were used. The namesake "Medallion with a gold band around it, often contained vignettes of birds, either songbirds in a garden or pairs of swimming ducks (all birds were icons of happy marriage). The prototypes for the Medallion were the armorial devices found on many 19th century and earlier Chinese export porcelains, within which market Rose Medallion found its place among newly rich families without royal pedigrees, who owed their prosperity to the Industrial Revolution.

"Famille Rose" or "Canton Famille Rose" would be an acceptable term for the pattern shown here, though a purist might be quick to remind that a goodly amount of the Famille Rose exported via foreign "Hongs' in Canton was not painted in that city but received its decoration at Jingdezhen. In my opinion, I believe the pattern here belongs in the general category of "Auspicious Motifs", including in this instance antique vases, lucky cash coins, "lingzhi" immortality mushrooms, "ruyi" ("as you wish") scepters and other symbols of good fortune. I include photos below of a related famille rose cup & saucer set with an only slightly less busy version of auspicious icons.

Beest regards,

Bill H.







Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Endre Fri, Dec 15, 2017

Excellent Bill, I was not aware of all of that valuable information. Thanks Brandon for posting your question, and thank you Bill for a thorough and informative reply

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Brandon mccloskey Thu, Dec 14, 2017

Thank you, I knew that much. Here are more pictures.







Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Brandon Mccloskey Fri, Dec 15, 2017

Thank you very much Bill H. Do you think that the fact it was made with traditional Asian tea cups rather than westernized tea cups speak anything of where it was decorated and if it was possibly not made for export? Would it be safe to assume it's mid and not late 1800's?

Can you speak on the quality? The enamel seems to be done well to my eyes and is that true guilding on it you think? The underside, being rough and unglazed seems curious to me. That's why I originally half dismissed it as a cheap early 20th century piece.

About a month ago I had seen one on eBay (just the tray) identical in form just decorated differently (all green with only pink flowers). And it was bought for over $1000 dollars. Does that value seem appropriate or do you believe it may have been a rare pattern or someone just liked it immensely? I will provide a link to the sale if I can relocate it.

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Endre Mon, Dec 18, 2017

Brandon, it does appear that the quality of your item is very good. And the detail looks more mid 19th. Many sets were shipped to Pennsylvania. You may have already watched the video, but if not- it is very informative. You tube, Chinese export porcelain- rose canton by Ken Rivenbark of southern heirloom. The person who normally gives great information on Chinese porcelains has not responded to your query yet, but maybe he will. American export, from what I have read, is heavier and very slightly less quality than what the Chinese would have kept for themselves. I’m sorry I can’t be of more help, but in my opinion I think your pieces are mid 19th century for American market.

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Bill H Tue, Dec 19, 2017

The fact of teacups without handles tells little of where these pieces were decorated or whether they was made for export. Anything of this quality made and decorated in China was being made for export except Imperial ware, which was of course made in a quality much better than this.

There was nothing unusual about a tea tray being unglazed on the bottom, because it was not made to hold liquid, and the glazing up top was sufficient to stop leakage from spills or damage from heat. Many food-serving platters, being glazed in the interior, weren't glazed on the base or were given only a light coat of glaze.

As for the roughness, it's my impression that Chinese potters and painters weren't particularly concerned about parts of a dish that were not meant to be seen at the table. The consumers who paid enormous prices to own sets of Chinese porcelain at the time apparently were satisfied enough not to complain either. It wasn't like you could return them to the store at that time. Early repairs like stapling are testimony to how highly valued these pieces were.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Brandon mccloskey Wed, Dec 20, 2017

Thank you very much for you input guys! That is a handsome tea cup and saucer you posted, I can most definitely see the resemblance. Would you say that the business of the pattern is a positive or a negative in terms of desirability? I have not been able to track down a piece online with as much "going on" as this one and correct me if I am wrong but located to the right of the vase/urn is a strange creature, would it be a silk worm?? To the right of the books, slightly catty-corner is a flying creature.. a phoenix perhaps?? It's not vitally important, just something I have been trying to figure out.

I posted a link to an ebay sale last time but it did not show up, I am trying again but if it doesn't and you are curious about this tea tray that sold for almost $2,000 american dollars it can be found relatively easy if you google Chinese straits famillie rose tea tray..

URL Title :Famillie rose tea tray on ebay


Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Endre Thu, Dec 21, 2017

Hi, I think you have a bat and a toad. The bat is a symbol of happiness and the toad is a symbol of longevity and money. I think usually a phoenix would have a longer neck and a tail, what I think as a toad may be something else that I am unaware of- but the toad and bat would make sense to me as being together. My opinion is that everything you have going on with your pieces is attractive, and others may find it attractive too. What I have heard is that some people would prefer floral rose medallion for table settings. It’s possible though that someone is looking for one like yours in order to pair it with what they already have at their home. I’m not really qualified to give concrete answers, only my personal opinions. I definitely do not know values for anything, I don’t pay very much attention to that. I would say that you could always lower your price but it’s hard to raise it. I hope I helped a little bit with your animal questions, maybe one of the dealers would be able to suggest a current market value, or maybe there is a dealer in your area who could suggest a starting price. Best of luck

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Brandon Mccloskey Tue, Dec 26, 2017

Thanks Endre! A bat definitely makes more sense but a toad I just don't see, if you take notice it's.. best way to put it is blowing a giant bubble type of thing from its head, I thought it might be spinning silk, it does have legs.. and ears though.. regardless it's really weird looking lol. I appriceate your input, unless someone tells me otherwise I believe the value is close if not more than the one I posted that sold on eBay, it does have a cup after all.

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Bill H Wed, Dec 27, 2017

I'll cast my vote for bat and caterpillar, probably a silkworm, though Chinese artists exercised their own perspective when depicting such creatures.

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Endre Thu, Dec 28, 2017

Hi guys, I am perplexed by the creatures here. I was thinking it may be a three legged toad, which may have the “ears” as something for an immortal to hold while riding. I agree with you both that it does look like a worm, except the legs, and the flying creature definitely looks more bat than moth. Bill, you have brought up an interresting fact of artists varying interpretations and now I wonder if the depiction may be of the life cycle of a silk worm, symbolizing death and rebirth. Very interesting and intriguing set Brandon!

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Brandon mccloskey Sat, Dec 30, 2017

Thank you both so much for your input, Bill, Endre, once we started talking about it I decided to take a closer look at the piece and a silkmoth I would say, is 100% correct! The circles present on its wings seem a dead give away no? And the bubble thing I mentioned from the silkworm would be it beginning to spin its cocoon. Would that be the symbolism here? Death and rebirth?

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Endre Sun, Dec 31, 2017

I agree with you 100%, Brandon. Others may be able to help more with the meaning behind these animals in this arrangement, along with the other items- in context to the time frame of production, but many people in old times believed that the very short life cycle of the silk moth and the various stages of that cycle, represented life death and rebirth. It is listed with the motifs found on 100 antiques, interpreted as industy. I think of kilns like a man made volcano, or a dragon- and the pottery like a transformation of one thing into another. I think it could also be translated as a journey. Just my own thoughts here. I would be curious to hear others opinions as well.

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Bill H Sun, Dec 31, 2017

Before you make up your mind, I'll confuse the situation further with some photos I made of an 8-inch plate I'd put so far back on the shelf I'd forgotten where it was until today. It shows yet another view of the weird green creature that seems to look like something else every time I see it. More froglike in today's view. However, this time it is seen more clearly to be either staring into or holding something in its mouth that resembles a spyglass into the realm of the dragon. The creature also seems to have something similar but not quite as clearly visible in the depiction on your plate. Definitely appears to have a metaphysical side, so probably is mentioned somewhere if we can find the right book or Wikipedia page. I'm making a New Year's resolution to dig up something documentary on this guy in the New Year.

Cheers,

Bill H.







Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Endre Tue, Jan 02, 2018

Well that does confuse things a little bit more. Thanks for uploading those photos, now I’m really beginning to think. In response to the last post, I figured that it must be a stylized silkworm hanging from a cocoon. Now I do think again, that it may have to do with Zhang Guo Lao. There is money below the animal. So, maybe the frog is in the well, and the dragon is the water outside the well. Maybe the frog is now actually seeing the ocean outside of the well. Zhang Guo Lao is said to be a magician. Mysticism was quite popular in the 19th century and I think the shiny spots on frogs and toads are thought of as jewels, and magical. Maybe Brandon’s motif has something to do with Lan Caihe, with her shiny breathe- but I don’t know if she relates to this animal in any way. I wonder if this may be a medicinal type of item. Very interresting, best of luck with your researches Bill, and Brandon. I know I will be looking forward to learning what you come up with.

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Brandon mccloskey Tue, Jan 02, 2018

Wow, Bill now that IS interesting. It's quite obvious we are dealing with the same creature. Same ears, same mowhawk type of thing down the spine, a round "object" coming from its mouth. This leads me to believe that its probably not a worm or a toad but a specific, likely mythical creature(?). I am not familiar with anything like this in Chinese culture/mythology but then again my focus is mostly on Japan. Do you think somebody else on here would possibly know? We could start a new thread to ask, we could also see if anyone else has a piece with this creature on it and find out how prevalent or obscure it is, just a thought. Btw that is a very nice plate, what is the age, region, etc.

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Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Bill H Wed, Jan 03, 2018

That plate is late 19th century Chinese and previously belonged to Tony Allen, who used it to illustrate characteristic firing faults of the period on page 290 of his latest book (Allen's Antique Chinese Porcelain - The Detection of Fakes). Apart from firing faults, the back also is interesting for an inscription, indicating the plate was made by someone named "Liang" for somebody's "No. 213 pattern". Since this was written on the plate, I think the piece might have been a pattern prototype.

Best regards,

Bill H.



Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Endre Fri, Jan 05, 2018

Interesting Bill. Might Brandon’s have come to the states as part of a salesman’s sample? I have read that merchants would do that, kind of like a tailor who would show his array of fabrics and patterns.

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Bill H Mon, Jan 08, 2018

The piece came to me by way of New Zealand in a cardboard box, not a salesman's case. In my opinion, the item probably was made for someone in China, perhaps a comprador employed by one of the Canton Hongs, where the Western agents for export porcelain held sway.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Repost (Better pics): Chinese Straits tea tray & cup? Cantonese famille rose? Age, value?
Posted By: Bill H Mon, Jan 08, 2018

I'm going to have to start writing these things after I've finished my coffee. Should have said that my last dish shown came from New Zealand, etc., and there's no reason to believe Brandon's items came to the U.S. in a sample case, not that sample cases weren't used in the trade. But Brandon's pieces comprised just a small part of a mass-produced set and pattern. I cant conceive of an agent selling his samples until popularity had begun to wane.

Best regards,

Bill H.


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