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Subject:Dish with Qianlong mark - period or late Qing/Republic?
Posted By: Mat Fri, Dec 01, 2017 IP: 195.251.104.62

Hi, I have this dish and was wondering if this is very late Qianlong Minyao ware or rather a late Qing-Republic piece? Thank you very much for any comments!
Mat







Subject:Re: Dish with Qianlong mark - period or late Qing/Republic?
Posted By: JLim Fri, Dec 01, 2017



Dear Mat

I am sure others here will provide better analysis, since I don't know about this motif or the gild patterns etc, but here are my preliminary thoughts:

First, the slight opacity (cloudiness) in the green enamels makes me think this is 19th century onward. The slightly dreamy landscape with barely visible hills does exist in Qianlongs time, but to me is somewhat reminiscent of the style of landscape favoured on Tongzhi porcelain (c. 1866 onwards).

Second, the gilding seems to exhibit realistic looking wear. Anthony Allen regards wear on gilding as a good sign of authenticity that is still not normally faked; the shade of gilding looks properly old to me, not like the foreign forms of gilding that were only used from the 20th century (Allen 2015, p296).

Third, the mark on the porcelain is a Qianlong mark exhibiting the so-called "reversed S". Although this did exist in some Minyao porcelains from Qianlong's time, this is still abnormal. It is much more likely that this is diagnostic of the first quarter of the 20th century (Allen 1996, p101).

Fourth, the footrim looks 19th century or later to me. There is also no fritting at the edges.

I would conclude that this object is probably early 20th century in origin.

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: Dish with Qianlong mark - period or late Qing/Republic?
Posted By: Endre Fri, Dec 01, 2017

Mat, your dish reminds me of a Shanghai marked piece I saw. It had the coral ground with similar gold decoration, cartouches with similarly painted landscapes. The strokes of the black lines are common on early republican era “Shanghai” wares. Some are marked with pseudo reign marks as well. Just for comparison, I mention it. I also spotted an 18th c. coral ground Hu vase with Qianlong reign mark but the painting looks a little different to me. It very well may be mark and period for all I know. One of the experts can probably help you further with the details.

Subject:Re: Dish with Qianlong mark - period or late Qing/Republic?
Posted By: Bill H Sat, Dec 02, 2017

That's a late Qianlong-period dish, in my opinion. It compares well with the below 9.75-inch minyao (popular kiln) dish of the Jiaqing-era (1796-1820) in the same palette, which came already stapled to the USA in the late 19th century with missionaries who'd been given it by their converts before leaving China for home.

I don't have a Qianlong dish in the same palette, but do have a popular kiln celadon "quail" dish with his mark, which I believe is of the period and also show below for comparison.

Best regards,

Bill H.







Subject:Re: Dish with Qianlong mark - period or late Qing/Republic?
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Sat, Dec 02, 2017

I concur with Bill H that it is late 18th century, Qianlong mark and period; but minyao, not Guanyao.

Jonathan, please stop misquoting me.

Subject:Re: Dish with Qianlong mark - period or late Qing/Republic?
Posted By: JLim Sat, Dec 02, 2017



Again I must definitely defer to Bill H on these subjects haha

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: Dish with Qianlong mark - period or late Qing/Republic?
Posted By: Mat Mon, Dec 04, 2017

Dear all, thank you for your help and detailed answers! I thought it could be mark & period,but was not sure as I could not find many coral ground pieces of the 18th century to compare. Endre, I see what you mean when you refer to Shanghai decorated pieces, but I see differences in painting style and the emamels on my piece are thicker applied than on those, as far as I can see. https://watersilkdragon.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/chinese-republic-porcelain-shanghai-marked-landscape-examples-%E6%B0%91%E5%9B%BD%E7%93%B7%E4%B8%8A%E6%B5%B7/
Regards,
Mat

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