Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries


Visitors' Forum

Asian Art  Forums - Reply Message
Asian Art Forums

Message Listing by Date:
Message Index | Back | Post a New Message | Search | Private Mail | FAQ
Subject:Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: MJ Tue, Nov 21, 2017 IP: 2.96.111.20

I have this Chinese vase which got smashed. Can someone help identify its age and advise if it’s worth restoring?



Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: Bokaba Wed, Nov 22, 2017

At first blush, it looks like a late 19th Century Kangxi style rouleau vase, but it is hard to tell. I don't know if they did green on black like that. Otherwise, it is a modern copy.

Bokaba

Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: MJ Thu, Nov 23, 2017

Hi,

Thanks for helping.

It’s white/cream very fine hand painted decoration over a black background. Then a block green translucent glaze over the whole middle section.

I’m not responsible for smashing it by the way, the delivery company and poorly wrapped senders efforts did that.

Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: MJ Fri, Nov 24, 2017

ALSO IGNORE “It’s white/cream very fine hand painted decoration over a black background.“ I was trying to remember looking at it from months ago. Having just unwrapped and looking at it again, the floral decoration is actually unpainted porcelain with a fine black outline making the decoration, then the blank areas in between the floral design are blacked out, THEN a translucent green over the whole floral pattern. Also I’ve shon a light from the back of all the broken pieces and its covered in a brown/orange crackle, absolutely typical of Qianlong items.

Please feel free to give your opinions.

Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: MJ Fri, Nov 24, 2017

UPDATE

This is interesting, “An important and rare green enamel and black-ground charger, mark and period of Qianlong (1736-1795). Sold 13,560,000 HKD at Sotheby’s Hong Kong, 10 April 2006, lot 1520”.

Undeniably the same rare pattern and possibly artists hand? I’m a mature graphic designer and artist and I like to think I have an experienced eye for detail, and I can’t logically think it could be anything other than a vase of the same Qianlong era. The pattern alone is undeniably the same.

I would say the depth of the pattern on my vase is even deeper. Even the up close texture of the bowl seems like my vase. My vase has actually been stored away, because when it was smashed months ago and the photos were taken, I was so annoyed that I couldn’t look at it.

I welcome anyone’s views.




URL Title :http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2017/05/13/35281143.html


Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: Corey Sat, Nov 25, 2017

Where did you buy the vase, if I may ask? What was the description of it by the seller? The empty double ring would indicate Kangxi period.

Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: MJ Sun, Nov 26, 2017

Hi Corey,

I’ve only just noticed your post. I’m going to be honest, because I hate when people on this forum are shady about how they acquire items. This will sound odd but once I explain, it doesn’t detract the facts from what the vase physical is. As clearly shown by the interest in this thread.

I’m a very vigilant watcher on a well known auction website, you can probably guess which one I mean. This vase was listed in the completely wrong category, it was literally described as a “vintage vase”, ridiculously low starting price, it had two poorly taken photos (one of which I’ll attach) and the seller was in Devon UK (I’m also in the UK). I print out the whole listings of items I purchase, in case an item has potentially been stolen in the past and I have proof I purchased it innocently and legally.

Within ten minutes of the vase being listed, I contacted the seller and asked if they’ll do a buy it now, which they accepted happily. Taking in mind the very low starting price and complete lack of description the seller gave, the seller had no clue what they potentially could be seller, so this also eliminates it coming from someone of knowledge in Chinese art.

The vase was delivered smashed, I contacted the seller who started passing the buck and refusing to deal with the issue. They finally said they’d refund half, they never did. It was such a small price, I couldn’t be bothered to chase them. So I thought to myself, it’s smashed i can’t do anything about it, I obviously like the vase still but I’ve paid a very very low price anyway (two-figure amount), I’ll put it away and one day I’ll look at investigating the authenticity and getting it restored. And here we are today.

I hope you and the readers here can appreciate me being open. There’s a stigma around buying pieces from that online auction website, and I completely understand because there’s tons and tons of fakes out there. But pretty much all of my pieces I buy online are purchased like this scenario; within minutes of them being listed and from clueless sellers who don’t know what they potentially might have. Some of my pieces have been physically inspected by famous experts and when I explain how I find them, they’re flabbergasted. I’ll make a guess that every 10,000 newly listed items in the general Asian sector online, a handful are from clueless sellers that go undetected by conventional ways of searching.

I’ll keep my searching tips to myself.

Kind regards,



Post a Reply
Name:
Email:
Group: China & Japan
Subject:
Message:
Link URL:
Enter here the complete URL of any site, page or image you would like to show other visitors.
URL Title:
Enter here the title of the link you've given above. This will appear to the visitor. Eg., if you are linking another picture, enter "Another picture". The link will not appear without a title.
Image URL:
Enter here the URL of an image if it is already uploaded on the web. The image will appear with your posting. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post.
Image: You may upload up to three images. If you would like to upload more images to this message please do so by replying to this same message.

Please make sure the file type is JPEG or GIF and the filename does not contain spaces.





Use the Browse button to find an image (jpg or gif) on a local drive on your computer to upload for including with your message. Do not upload images with file names containing spaces. Please do not upload files larger than 500 KB in size. Do not post pictures which are not yours without permission from the copyright holder. It is the responsibility of each poster to make sure they have permission to use any photos they post. Check the "email notification" box below if you would like to be notified of any responses to your message.
Check here for email notification.
Security Code: Security Image: please enter the text appears in this image.

Please type in the code you see in the image directly above this input box.

Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: Corey Fri, Dec 08, 2017

A bit late reply for this thread, but I wanted to show you a couple of videos where Peter Comb is commenting on the sale of a unidentifyed Qianlong mark and period famille noire dish on eBay:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DXxcPxVUOg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_7lW-yxeiI

It would probably have rather high value if it really is what it appears to be.

And then there was also this one which looks to as a 19th century apocryhically Kangxi marked example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Rare-Chinese-QIng-Dynasty-Green-Glazed-Porcelain-Plate-Kangxi-Mark-/112611365942?nma=true&si=VCQkbaHJIz3Z3BUEz2XYdMfcgiI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: M Mon, Dec 11, 2017

I like Peter Combs and admired his knowledge for a while. I’ve contacted him on several occasions, he’s unbiased and very friendly, a nice gentleman.

I can’t seem to get the second link to find what you’re looking at.

The vases value is somewhat irrelevant now, obviously I wished it wasn’t smashed, but I don’t feel negative about the whole thing. I believe in its current state it’s probably still potentially worth a lot more than what I paid for it. One day it’ll be put back together.

Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: JLim Sat, Nov 25, 2017




Dear MJ

I share your irritation. I hope you got some recompense from the deliverers. It may not be 18th century, but I believe your vase is antique.

Like Bokaba, I did not comment on this object because I was not sure if the green-on-black design, which did exist in the 18th century, was revived at all in the 19th century.

I am still not sure if it was revived; I have not looked it up - but if green-on-black was NOT revived in the 19th century, then your object is probably relatively modern, not Qianlong.

I'm sure you're a fine graphic designer, but please note the following factors which make your object 19th century or later:

First, the footrim looks roughly levigated, with apparent rust spots. This is typical of late 19th century ware but not of 18th century ware, which was more fine and smooth. It is also not typical of modern fakes, which tend to be even smoother with artificial ageing applied over the top.

Second, the profile of the footrim, what I call the "toblerone rim" if you know what a Toblerone is - especially combined with the little "ledge" running around the inside of the footrim - can you see it? - is typical of the late 19th century.

Third, the double circle mark in the foot is hand painted - a lot of modern fakes simply print it on, so this is reassuring.

Fourth, the white glazed portions of the porcelain seem to contain a lot of reassuring flaws like black spots etc - which I would tend to associate with 19th century wood kilns.

Fifth, the diaper patterns at the "ankle" and "shoulders" seem to possess an olive, slightly opaque shade of green and a slightly pinkish shade of red. I would associate this with the 19th century - 18th century greens and reds would be more transparent emerald and matte scarlet.

Sixth, I hate to cast aspersions on your eye, but the foliage on the main body of the vase looks extremely stiff and robotic compared to the 18th century originals.

Seventh, the way the bat has been delineated is typical of Guangxu but not Qianlong. It is always interesting to compare the way the Chinese have painted creatures over the generations.

For example, the Lion is a symbol of Buddhism and was once common in Buddhism's native India; the Chinese had no lions at all and depicted the lion as a kind of long haired dog, with the dog getting more and more playful and puppy-like over the generations.

Similarly the Tiger, once it became rare in China, was frequently depicted from the 18th century onwards as a kind of scrawny cat.

In the case of the Bat, there are obvious reasons why artists might lack personal experience with what bats looked like; thus by the time of Guangxu the bat strongly resembles a kind of moth, especially the furry, blunt abdomen.

In your case the moth-bat seems to have become extremely sculptural, even architectural, and to have become frozen in the centre of the design. This, too, I think is typical of the late 19th century.

From all this, I would suspect that your vase dates to the late 19th century and was possibly part of the Kangxi/18th century revival from the 1890s to the very early 20th century.

Someone else would have to respond to your need for advice on whether and how to repair your abused vase.

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: Fine hand painted Chinese vase worth restoring also identification?
Posted By: MJ Sun, Nov 26, 2017

Hi J.Lim,

I appreciate the time you’ve taken to write your views.

I haven’t got a camera good enough to photograph the surface blistering, crackle and wear but it’s not unlike Kangxi or Qianlong pieces where the glaze thins around the most handled areas and forms holes. It’s categorically not 20th century, I’m seriously not even going to go down that road and try and justify that aspect, it’s just not.

Footrim rust spots: mostly shallow tiny gaps in the porcelain filled with dirt. Take a look at the broken edges and the porcelain is very fine and smooth.

“...the diaper patterns at the "ankle" and "shoulders" seem to possess an olive, slightly opaque shade of green and a slightly pinkish shade of red. I would associate this with the 19th century - 18th century greens and reds would be more transparent emerald and matte scarlet.” Yes, the red is matte and a dark red, not pinky, the ankle and shoulder green is enamelled but obviously not as heavy as the main body enamel.

“...I hate to cast aspersions on your eye, but the foliage on the main body of the vase looks extremely stiff and robotic compared to the 18th century originals.” I’m not an authority, but from my eye the pattern doesn’t look stiff at all, it has depth and a flow of life about it, it’s not just an applied pattern slapped on quickly. I’ve seen authenticated pieces which look to my eye artistically lifeless and dull.

“...the way the bat has been delineated is typical of Guangxu but not Qianlong. It is always interesting to compare the way the Chinese have painted creatures over the generations.” I agree it’s useful to look at the evolution of how things are painted throughout Chinese art history, but I wouldn’t agree that you wouldn’t find similar examples before Guangxu.

Kind regards,


Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |