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Subject:I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: Endre Mon, Oct 09, 2017 IP: 2602:306:c51c:e200:f

I was wondering if anyone had any experience to share about this garniture or vase. I have not been able to find a reference for this on forum archives or sold archives. It is 43cm (17") tall. I have a couple of questions. Is there a proper name for the collar on the shoulder and foot? Also, I was wondering about the plausible age and origin. I was thinking Chinese, late 19th or early 20th century- but I'm very unsure. The inside is glazed as well and has a couple of drips. I tried to take a more close photo of the bottom, where it looks like it was chipped away for the application of the bezel- which looks like it was cleaned with an abrasive to me. You may not be able to see in the photo, but on even further magnification, there are very small indigo color blue specs in the glaze. Is that typical of a certain glaze or specific kiln? I would appreciate any feedback or comments. Thanks







Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: Endre Tue, Oct 10, 2017

Here are a couple of photos showing the blue specs. I don't know if they are indicative of anything, but thought I would ask just in case





Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: JLim Thu, Oct 12, 2017



Dear Endre

Sorry to disappoint you, but I would classify this as a modern object because of the excessively white and smooth footrim.

Kind regards
Jonathan

Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: Endre Fri, Oct 13, 2017

Thank you for your reply Jonathan, I appreciate it. I suppose the powder mix of the glaze is irrelevant, but do you happen to know the technical term for the applied metalwork on this object? I only paid twenty dollars for this one, so I'm not very disappointed and quite happy for the information. Thanks again!

Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: Endre Thu, Oct 19, 2017

Jonathan, thanks again for your thoughts. I know you have vast knowledge of these things, and I am NOT completely discarding what you have said. However, I just happened to be going through some of my dinnerware for comparison of another posters query about her moriage finger dishes, and noticed how "excessively" white the foot rims were on my Morimura items as well as my 75+ year old European items. Whiter and smoother than this piece. I was wondering, did you base your conclusion on the metal, shape, and rust, in conjunction with the foot? I would think that if this came from a modern retail store, that I would not be hard pressed to find a comp. I am interested in learning, so please take no offense. Thanks

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Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: JLim Fri, Oct 20, 2017



Dear Endre

No, no, no, I do not have vast knowledge of this subject at all. I should have clarified that my statement about the foot is only relevant IF it happens to be Chinese porcelain (my only relative specialty).

If this vase is European or Japanese then my comment might well be totally irrelevant. If it is Chinese, however, then I still think the foot is far too white and levigated to be antique.

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: Endre Sun, Oct 22, 2017

Thank you J.Lim for the reply. I have learned many things from some of your other posts, and look forward to learning more. I am not very well familiar with most things, so in my own opinion, you are quite knowledgeable. I'm not ready to make this a change jar quite yet. I acquire most of my items from flea markets and garage sales, so I have no real provenance at all. It doesn't seem likely that someone would part with an item of great age or value. Unless they subjectively thought it was just grandmas old ugly vase. I watched a BBC documentary and noticed a few polychrome pieces with the metal trims, though this monochrome in my opinion is not the caliber of those items. I'm pretty sure it is not Korean by the shape. I'm not ruling out Japan, Hong Kong, Macao, or even India- though Indian things look a little more elaborate. It could have been made in China last year to look old, for all I know. I travel to Asia yearly, and I know people do work hard to fake age on items. I was told by family currently living in Asia, that everything is fake. I don't believe that, but either way, I wouldn't like to travel with something this large- or pay to ship it to the states. I don't know if anyone else would either. You can see that I am somewhat lost on this one, I wish it had any kind of a mark from somewhere. I suppose my search continues. Thank you again J.Lim

Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: Endre Tue, Oct 24, 2017

I have decided to add a few more photos for your consideration. I am still at a loss, and am leaning towards J.Lim about modern Chinese piece, and also in my opinion maybe fixed with the mounts elsewhere to be exported to US. Having had the made in sticker lost or removed. My main conundrums are the discoloration, glaze contractions, and rust. I have read elsewhere in the forum that sometimes finely levigated foot rims do appear when not typical to a time period. I'm guessing, but I think the copper in the alloy has caused corrosion- and I have no idea how long that would take. Maybe just a few years, maybe 20, maybe more? It seems that if it were modern not vintage Japanese or European that it would be marked with more than a sticker. Was it dipped in acid, sanded down, and buried in earth- just for an old look? Seems like a lot of trouble with an odd foot and no mark. I will shut my mouth now to just wait and listen for anyone who might be inclined to enlighten me on this. Hope to hear your views and learn a few things, thanks







Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: Walter Wed, Oct 25, 2017

Hello Endre,

Your jar could be from the late 19th to early 20th century as you suggested but Vietnamese, not Chinese. The Bat Trang kilns near Hanoi specialized in a similar crackled ware and the paste is consistent with that of wares from Bat Trang and the neighboring Chu Dau area. In addition the metallic banding is often associated with Vietnam.

This charger is tentatively identified as Bat Trang, late 19th to early 20th century.







Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: JLim Thu, Oct 26, 2017



Dear Endre

Walter may be on to something here. Look at the general feel of the crackling inside the bowl's foot, and compare it to the vase. Also compare the metal mounts to the ones on the vase. I learn something every day.

Kind regards
J.Lim

Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: Endre Sun, Oct 29, 2017

I hope a simple thank you could be heard as a respectful look in the eye, a handshake, and a courteous bow. Thank you both for your insights, and jLim your initial reply further sparked my curiosities on this one. If I am not learning something everyday, I am doing something incorrectly

Subject:Re: I have a couple questions about crackled garniture
Posted By: Endre Sun, Nov 19, 2017

I have an update on this one. It appears that both previous reply’s to my initial post are correct. New, bat Trang, and tentative are correct. The metal is quite similar, even the tool marks. Mine is not silver though. I am very happy that I found this for only 20$ and knowing where it came from makes it a little more special for me. Until yesterday it was the most expensive art I have ever bought. I will still get very excited while picking when I see an item that is visually appealing to me personally, or a nice Tashiro Shoten vase, an Art Deco Noritake piece, amateur painted and signed Limoges plates, and various mid century Japanese imports. They all have a journey and a story. They will be sitting on our shelves for quite some time. I love it when my wife says “very pretty”and “good deal” I laugh when she says “so stupid”. I will not be heavily invested in decor, but more power to those with that bankroll. Kudos to you experts and dealers who can still find “important” works of art and offer them to the public, that is a good service and a talent. I will enjoy from photos and museums. Through your tips, and an anonymous tip from an honest American seller, and a tip from an honest seller on the ground in bat Trang. I have positive identification on this jar, and have met a new friend in the process. Too bad no lid anymore, but that’s ok. I understand why these things are made to look old, everybody must eat. I wish they would have left this jar new looking though. However, it does have a rustic charm about it, in my opinion. From Mr X in bat Trang: “Hang nay Duoc lam bat Trang, no la hang moi San Xuat”

Happy picking!
Thank you, Cam on Ong


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