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Subject:Massive Vase, Late Ming, or Qing?
Posted By: casper Wed, Jun 28, 2017 IP:

Hi !

Looking to get your opinion on this:
Porcelain vase, very good condition, no cracks or chips. aprox. dimension are 45cm high, 35cm width, in one of the picture hand for comparison, visible rust flakes around the surface, bottom appears to be raw and crude without gaze. hand painted, very detailed painting, beautiful horses in top part ornament. no marks or sign.

Subject:Re: Massive Vase, Late Ming, or Qing?
Posted By: Robert Thu, Jun 29, 2017

Look like a modern imitation of a late Yuan dynasty blue and white jar.

Subject:Re: Massive Vase, Late Ming, or Qing?
Posted By: Casper Thu, Jun 29, 2017

Hello Robert. Could you please tell why you think thats the imitation? What was the reason? Any specific part of vase or colours? I would like to know for future.

Subject:Re: Massive Vase, Late Ming, or Qing?
Posted By: Bokaba Fri, Jun 30, 2017

From what I've heard, no authentic Yuan pieces have swirled bases. It also looks like the rust spots are artificially applied. An authentic Yuan piece of this size and quality would potentially be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.


Subject:Re: Massive Vase, Late Ming, or Qing?
Posted By: casper Sat, Jul 01, 2017

So the study of this piece, led me to this short youtube clip, please look at the second cracks vase on the presentation, it has the same ornaments, which the author of the clip describing as a "sea horses." According to this, such painting are very rare. Please look at this and try to compare techniques of those two.

Im also attaching photo of Yuan vase with seahorses ornaments from "Indianapolis Museum of Art" collection.

photo from :

On top of that ,I recently get an answer from one of the auction houses, and they suggest that I should have it dated with carbon. (carbon-14 dating). Such a pleasure costs about 350 USD.

Im really confused now. The swirled base is the mystery here.

URL Title :YOUTUBE clip.

Subject:Re: Massive Vase, Late Ming, or Qing?
Posted By: Corey Sun, Jul 02, 2017

A quick search with google images revealed two examples of jars from the Yuan dynasty and one from the Hongwu period with swirled bases:

Also an example from Indianapolis Museum Of Art, decorated with horses among waves like on your meiping:

Where did you get it from? Rust spots are usually a good sign, but I'd guess these are also being applied to the the copies now.

Subject:Re: Massive Vase, Late Ming, or Qing?
Posted By: casper Sun, Jul 02, 2017

The vase comes from house clearance, so far only one owner for the last years. Unfortunately I don't know anything else about its past.

Yeah, lot of rust spots. In one of the "online valuations", I was instructed to have a closer look at them, as real rust spots will have inconsistent variations in terms of shade and texture between the spots.

To be honest no one from this appraisals know if that's genuine Yuan piece, or just a copy.

Subject:Odd knees on the horses
Posted By: beadiste Sun, Jul 02, 2017

Did anyone else notice that the artist evidently thought that horses' front knees are drawn the same as the hocks on the back legs?

Seems like the kind of mistake a copyist might make...

Subject:Re: Odd knees on the horses
Posted By: Corey Tue, Jul 11, 2017

Yes, I noticed that too, but I didn't know what to make out of it. It might have some strange symbolic meaning, or just be a simple mistake by the drawer. I would like to add some more pictures and links to this thread, but I'll have to wait until later, because I feel a little stressed an unfocused in the hot summer weather here. I hope this thread won't go totally dead, because It's an interesting vase, original or not ...

Subject:Re: Odd knees on the horses
Posted By: casper Wed, Jul 12, 2017

Hi Corey!

Hopefully it wont go dead, coz im still doing research on this, and checking new answers here on forum. Im happy it catch your attention, its very interesting in deed.

What I have done so far:
I take some proper photos and send them to have the vase valued. In appraisal, the vase was described as fabulous, but due the fact I can't provide any previous history of it, and also this kind of item is being made today in China & is threatening to almost flood the west. They "assume" that its well made replica in very high & convincing order. However only close physical examination could tell if there is chance that could be real Yuan piece, coz a chance of that still exist.
Its a proper gambling, coz there is a huge amount of money at stake. If its real we are speaking about millions, whatever dollars or pounds, if not, the auction value, according to appraisal will be between £400 - £600. Quite huge difference, though, heh.

Anyway if you can provide any information, clues, ideas, basically anything which would possibly help I will be more than grateful.

Best regards

Subject:Auction of "fakes" at Eden Galleries Atlanta
Posted By: TD Sat, Jul 15, 2017

This information was posted by Peter Combs on his site There's a similar Yuan style blue and white vase up for bids on July 15-16 at Eden Galleries Atlanta.

Subject:Re: Auction of "fakes" at Eden Galleries Atlanta
Posted By: Corey Mon, Jul 17, 2017

Well - the least I can do is to add the links to the site TD mentions. The site with the sale Peter Combs talks about:

And the yuan dynasty meiping sold by Eden Galleries Atlanta. It might not be the one TD had in mind, but it was the only one of this form I could find in their July 15-16 listings:

It's only partly comparable, so I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from a comparision.

I would have suggested that you contact the people behind the house clearance, to hear if they have any records of the house/owner, and then see if you can track the relatives to hear if they know anything about it's history, but it's probably ver time conssuming detective work.

What auction houses have you been in touch with? I would also suggest that you bring it in to an auction house like Christie's or Bonhams or someone else with true knowledge and experience, to have it examined first hand, and especially address the issue with the rust spots and the front legs of the horse. They must be able to give you a clue if the rust spots seems natuaral or artificially applied etc., and if would be worthwhile to have i TL-tested, or otherwise scientifically examined.

You can also send high resolution photos to Peter Combs himself to get his opinion. He invites people to do that in his youtube videos.

The picture I had in mind is copied online from a book Yuan dynasty porcelain, but it probably won't help you much. Don't know what I was thinking of ...

The links I had in mind were not good either. It was about the rust spots, but you must probably google it youself and see if you find the information available online relavant.

I have a handfull of pieces that I hold for potentially genuine yuan/early ming examples. All were purchased from Japanese dealers within the last 3-4 years, and none of them have provenance. The certainly doesn't appear to bemodern fakes but are most likely antique or semi-antique copies. One of the is a small monochrome copper red bowl. Extremely rare and valuable if it's a real yuan dynasty/Hongwu period example. That one also has rust spots all over, and the features of these are similar to the ewer from the meiyintang collection sold at Sotheby's in 2011, so you can take a look at that one and use the zoom function to see close ups of those damn rust spots. They should appear in concavities and on top of small surfacing iron impurities:

Probaly not the best example for comparision available online, but it was the one I used for reference myself. The color of my bowl also matches the ewer perfectly. Unfortunately I don't have a photo available.

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Subject:Re: Auction of "fakes" at Eden Galleries Atlanta
Posted By: Corey Mon, Jul 31, 2017

Just correcting the link in case casper or TD should ever wish to reply:

It' a good read and he has also made a youtube video where he comments on the sale:

But I have to say that disagree with him, that that yuan dynasty porcelain are never offered at auction with low estimates. One example is the plate estimated at $700 to $900 by Walker's Fine Art and Estate Auctions, but sold for $1 million to Littleton and Hennesey, who later sold it for $22 million at Tefaf in 2014:

I also went through the results of a major north american auction house recently and noticed there was a copper red vase described as possibly Hongwu period, estimated in the thousands, but sold in the millions.

And then there are the antique and semi-antique copies that are also collectable. But they have to be described as such, otherwise they should be considered modern repros.

Subject:Re: Auction of "fakes" at Eden Galleries Atlanta
Posted By: Corey Tue, Aug 15, 2017

Just adding a link with an example of a antique yuan style blue and white jar at auction. Lot #31:

The auction house that had the possibly Hongwu period copper red vase was Waddingtons in Canada, but since I haven't had the time to search through their results list again, I can't post the direct link. But it amazes me that they were letting that Pair of Famille Rose 'Boys' Vases, Qianlong Mark and Period go for $24,000. Sotheby's and Christie's would be able to sell these for $5 million, if not more, I think.

Subject:Re: Auction of "fakes" at Eden Galleries Atlanta
Posted By: Corey Thu, Oct 26, 2017

Another example of a Yuan dynasty blue and white porcelain meiping offered at auction with a low estimate (lot no. 1667):

Subject:Re: Auction of "fakes" at Eden Galleries Atlanta
Posted By: Corey Fri, Oct 27, 2017

There were some killer pieces available with very low pre-sale estimates in that sale by the way. For example this Song dynasty foliate guan washer(lot no. 1673):

Similar to an example in the imperial collection, which was in the news recently since it was damaged by the museum staff:

And also this small Ming dynasty guan stem cup was very interesting:

The similarities with the Chenghua period stem cup also in the imperial collection is obvious, and if experts could verify its creation to the same reign, it could possibly be considered as rare as the chicken cup from that era: | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |