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Subject:Was this a song ru lotus cup sold for $68,900 by Joanies?
Posted By: Corey Tue, Jun 27, 2017 IP: 193.169.154.224

Was this a song dynasty ru lotus cup sold by Joanies House Of Treasures for $68,900? J. T. Tai sticker at the base:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/HIGHLY-IMPORTANT-CHINESE-SONG-DYNASTY-RU-GUAN-CRACKLE-GLAZE-LOTUS-BOWL-J-T-TAO-/292112906031?hash=item440349372f:g:EjoAAOSw42JZE1Ln

Subject:Re: Was this a song ru lotus cup sold for $68,900 by Joanies?
Posted By: rat Wed, Jun 28, 2017

no, it wasn't.

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Subject:Re: Was this a song ru lotus cup sold for $68,900 by Joanies?
Posted By: Robert Wed, Jun 28, 2017

Who knows, but if genuine it was a steal. So I highly doubt it is genuine. If the modern Chinese potters are technologically advanced enough to duplicate Ru and other classic wares, presumably they can also fake a collection sticker. I guess I would question how Joanies House Of Treasures got it in the first place, then why they let it go so relatively cheaply, knowing how it was listed. My guess it that it did not sell but rather was shill bid?

Subject:Re: Was this a song ru lotus cup sold for $68,900 by Joanies?
Posted By: Corey Thu, Jun 29, 2017

All right! Finally I got some feedback on one of my postings. I don't think it's the real deal either. But I've been wondering if it could be one of the numerous other ceramic wares that "imitate" ru ware of the song dynasty, for example jun ware, guan ware, "linru", or even longquan. An example of jun that can be mistaken for ru is at the met, where it is described as "ma jun" or "soft jun":

http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/460901

Koh Antiques also has an article on the subject where it is mentioned that the chinese also call it "ru jun".

And there is a delicious lotus cup depicted in one of the catalogues of Chien Lung Tang (Nov. - Dec. 2011), which I'd guess is either guan, linru or jun ware:

http://chien-lung-tang.com/userfiles/20111112-s.jpg

http://chien-lung-tang.com/admin/news/front/news.php#a

(Both guan, linru and jun ware sometimes appear in glazes that look like the glaze of Chien Lung Tang's lotus cup.)

But if it is so, then the cup sold by Joanies should not have sesame seed shaped spur marks, should it?

The cup itself apparently comes from the estate of Vermeer and griggs, a well established and renowned dealers partnership, beased in atlanta I think. They used to run the site teadus.com, which I have personally used for reference on several occasions. It' says in the description that the cup comes from the personal collection of Michael Vermeer. Joanies has been selected to sell off their collection via her platform, which is understandable, as she really has had some ver succesful an admirable results in the past years.

(End of post 1 of june 29 anno 2017)

Subject:Re: Was this a song ru lotus cup sold for $68,900 by Joanies?
Posted By: Corey Thu, Jun 29, 2017

(Post 2 of june 29 anno 2017)

The sticker itself is of course a potentially important clue to follow, but as Robert suggest, it is not unlikely to be fake unfortunately.

There has recently been several examples of pieces offered at various auctions, mainly in north America, with fake stickers.

Here is an example of a Yongzheng marked famille rose moonflask with a S. Marchant and Sons sticker at Altair Auctions in Massachusetts:

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/42179301_rare-chinese-famille-rose-moon-flask

But the very same sticker is depicted on their site as an example of a fake sticker carrying their name:

http://emails.rapidz.co.uk/t/r-CA99AC8B9C9EE1AE2540EF23F30FEDED

In the same sale there also was a doucai jar with a sticker of J. T. TAI which unfortunately also is likely to be fake:

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/42179703_chinese-ming-doucai-dragon-jar

The jar itself could according to my own research be an apocryphally Chenghua marked doucai jar with an auspicious mark of the Wanli or Jiajing period, and therefore both a "mark and period" piece and a tribute piece and possibly even imperial, which would explain the Mrs. Alfred Clark provenance (The AIC sticker). I recently learned that Wanli and Jiajing imperial wares were once even higher regarded the Xuande, Yongle and Chenghua imperial wares, particulary by the japanese collectors.

(The ru washer that was sold at Sotheby's in 2012 for HKD208M came from the collection of Mrs Alfred Clark.)

Thank you for the feedback again. I wish more folks would comment on it. I'll probably follow up on this thread myself one of the next days myself, as the topic of song dynasty ru ware and its mysteries is one of my own favorites in my studies of chinese art and archaeology.






Subject:Re: Was this a song ru lotus cup sold for $68,900 by Joanies?
Posted By: Edward Sat, Jul 01, 2017

They buy pieces at auction houses all over the country including some of the best auction houses. They then offer the items on eBay. If you look they always have 50 70, 80 bids so who knows what's really going on. Many times you can find the original items that sold at the auction's if you look on live auctioneers. They do offer some really good items but it's questionable about bidding practices.

Subject:Re: Was this a song ru lotus cup sold for $68,900 by Joanies?
Posted By: Corey Tue, Jul 11, 2017

All right! Many thanks for your comment, Edward. I'll have to follow up on it later, because I've been a bit stressed out and unfocused lately.

Subject:Re: Was this a song ru lotus cup sold for $68,900 by Joanies?
Posted By: Corey Thu, Aug 17, 2017

Just found this link with examples of authentic ru pieces with glazes that actually resembles the glaze of the Joanie's lotus cup quite closely:

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_78ff27d80101gdfk.html

Subject:Re: Was this a song ru lotus cup sold for $68,900 by Joanies?
Posted By: Arch Wed, Jan 27, 2021

Fake -antique in most time - rather some are genuine vintage pieces.

That piece of Lotus cup has no relevance of Ru! Not sure why they even described as Ru and Guan (dubious proposition they don’t want to be blame for )
My suggestion to readers do not trust the so-called provenance sticker, few times I contacted the label reference eg. antique house (label) and seek rather they recognized the pieces and labels on record, all came back in denial, negative and no recollection on record. So buy from Joanies the House of Antique at your own risk. Just blew my mind why some fools are giving money away for fake Chinese antiques that worth mostly (US$) two to three digits in wholesale prices, however they are good looking decorative reproduction.


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