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Subject:Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Frank Smith Mon, Mar 20, 2017 IP: 2001:14ba:27f9:7000:

Hey everyone,

My great-great-grandfather was an missionary in China back in early 1900's. He lived and worked in northwest-Hunan and Helungkiang of Mantshuria.

He brought some "pantings" or pictures from there and now 100 years later I am wondering what these pictures are worth.

Here are 3 images from one of the pictures. I don't know any chinese so I would be extremefully happy if anyone could tell anything about the picture or the artist.

Thank you so much for your help.







Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Bill H Wed, Mar 22, 2017

This apparently is an embroidered copy of an early Qing painting. The inscription has two parts, the first a title that reads 神僊骨格,(Shen Xian Gu Ge), possibly translatable as "The Constitution of a Benevolent Spirit", literally the "Inner Framework of a Deity" (though Ge has a classical meaning which might lend a sense of "Coming and Going like a Benevolent Spirit").

The second part is a signature, 新羅山人寫 (Xinluo ShanRen Xie), "Done by the Hermit Xinluo", which was used by the noted early Qing painter Hua Nie (華喦 - 1682-1756), style name Qiu Yue (秋岳), born in Dong Yuan (東園 - location undetermined). Hua Nie seems to have been as famous for his verse as his paintings.

Since the embroidered recreation of the red seal simply repeats the painter's alias, nothing else can be said about the embroiderer except how precise the work is. Maybe Rat has more on Hua Nie. Google turned up some books about him, including some at this link below.

Best regards,

Bill H.

URL Title :Hua Nie


Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Frank Smith Wed, Mar 22, 2017

Thank you so much Bill!

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: rat Wed, Mar 22, 2017

Nice, though the Qing painter's name is Hua Yan, not Hua Nie. Despite the selection of pictures at the webpage at the bottom of this post (the picture of the man and camel is particularly entertaining), Hua is best known for his paintings of birds (eg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/43/6f/ba/436fbaec909115595a07870e7ec4237d.jpg), so this embroidery is an homage, though not particularly indicative of his painting style.

http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthistory/asian/Hua-Yan.html


Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Bill H Thu, Mar 23, 2017

Rat, thanks for catching that. Neither the Nie nor the Yan characters are in my Mathews dictionary. I saw references to Yan online but also kept coming up with Nie in the Google responses for reasons unknown and didn't catch the difference in the characters (喦 & 嵒), as Nie is distinguishable only by a higher "peak" in the mountain radical. I've increased the text size on my monitor and hope to do better next time.

Cheers,

Bill

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: rat Fri, Mar 24, 2017

I've never seen the "nie" character used before actually, just "yan". I learned of the painter by his romanized name before ever encountering the characters for it so the subtlety of the distinction between the two characters would have been lost on me. I don't see a reference for the painting by this title by Hua, so perhaps it no longer exists

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Frank Smith Thu, Mar 23, 2017

Awesome, thank you Rat! And since this is then definitely a copy and not original, it is better for me to just save it as a wall decoration rather than sell it for a few hundred because of the lack of the money.

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Bill H Fri, Mar 24, 2017

Lots of Chinese paintings get copied, but embroidery is a whole different art form, with its own large coterie of collectors and admirers. In my opinion, they probably will care less about yours being a copy of a classic painting and more about its own stand-alone quality of artistic presentation and workmanship. Here the needle has become a steel brush.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Frank Smith Fri, Mar 24, 2017

Bill and Rat,

Thank you both very much for your help and knowledge. I appreciate it a lot!

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: rat Fri, Mar 24, 2017

I agree with Bill H., this stands on its merits as an embroidery, and also has some value for referring to a painting by a well-known artist that may no longer exist (no photos of anything like this come up with a search on the title and the painter's name). Sell it if you don't want to keep it but it's not diminished by being a copy in another medium.

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Frank Smith Sun, Mar 26, 2017

Hey Rat,

Well since I am in a kind of chronicly out of money I would really like to sell it if I only:
-Know what to ask for it
and
-Know where and whom to sell it to.

That's kind the problem. I live in Finland and I got no idea on who to offer this and will they agree on the price or as said.. what the price should even be.

Thanks a lot for your help guys. I have learned a lot!

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Stan Sun, Mar 26, 2017

Here is something to try:

1) Get a square on image and crop it to include just the embroidery.

2) Do a google image search.

This may lead to the sale of another copy of your embroidery or the original from which it was derived.

I tried it with the picture above without success - but it is taken at such an angle that it isn't a good test.

Cheers,
Stan

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: rat Sun, Mar 26, 2017

You can always list it on ebay with the provenance you've provided and the information you have learned here. (Everybody else does this already...) The listings there get picked over fairly thoroughly these days and people will bid up quality items that aren't listed at above market prices (a common practice that results in things going unsold). See what other sorts of things in this vein are already posted for sale there to get a sense. Shipping from Finland may be expensive, but you have a legitimate antique, and there are certainly collectors of Chinese textile art out there. Take some better pictures and describe any damage accurately and you'll be in good shape.

Subject:Re: Over 100 yrs old Chinese silk weave picture
Posted By: Frank Smith Tue, Mar 28, 2017

Thanks Stan and Rat.

I will try to seek some info more and investigate what the embroidery might be worth. Thanks a lot for all your help guys.


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