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Subject:JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Fri, Feb 26, 2016 IP: 205.250.147.95

HETIAN INK JADE? THIS PIECE FEELS HEAVY WHEN HANDLE AND HAVE BRIGHT GREEN PATCHES ALL OVER THE SURFACE.BOTH SIDES HAVE THE SAME TAOTIE PATTERN. WHEN STRUCK WITH ANOTHER PIECE OF JADE AND IT SOUNDS LIKE METAL WITH HIGH PITCH.IT WEIGHT 846 GRAMS.7 INCHES TALL AND 3 INCHES WIDE.







Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: rj Sun, Feb 28, 2016

I should have ask: Does a magnet stick to it?

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: rj Sun, Feb 28, 2016

Could it be peridot or olivine in a nickel iron matrix? Is it magnetic?



Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Mon, Feb 29, 2016

Hi rj Sun,
Magnet so stick to the jade spear head. Can you let me know the micro picture above was? Thank you!

Danny





Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Super Mon, Feb 29, 2016

Danny, I found your piece extremely interesting and mysterious. What is the metal sheen on its surface? Was it some types of metallic paint? On my screen, it appears to be silver color. Was it actually black? Can it be scratched?

I had seen some black nephrite jade that contain a lot of iron before, they feel like and sound like metal because they did contain a lot of actinolite (ferrous and ferric)but should not attract magnets. Many were used to make Hongshan style jades but none of them were authentic. Was it hollow at its end? The taotie on it just made it more curious and strange. I wonder if it can be some modern jade fantasy. Where and how long ago did you acquire this piece, if you do not mind my asking. Thanks for sharing.

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Corey Tue, Mar 01, 2016

Picture provided by rj is of a pallasite meteorite. Can you make a density test?

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Wed, Mar 02, 2016

Hi Corey.
Pallasite meteorite!! Wow interesting! Before I bought this piece I asked the seller what material it was, he told me Spinach Jade. What kind of tools do I need to do a density test, and I lived in Vancouver BC where I can do a density test. Please advice, thank you!!

Danny

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Corey Thu, Mar 03, 2016

You'll need an transparent container large enough to submerge the spearhead in. A syringe with a scale in milliliters. A digital weight and a calculator.

Use the digital weight to define the spearhead's weight in grams. Fill the container with enough water to fully cover the spearhead. Make a marking at the water-line. Submerge the spearhead in the water. Use the syringe to suck up the displaced water until the water-line again fits with the marking on the container. And after all that finally use the calculator to divide the weight of the spearhead with the volume of the displaced water that you get from the reading of the scale on the syringe. The result is the density of your spearhead.

Density equals mass divided by volume.

1 millimeter equals 1 cubic-centimeter of water. One cubic-centimeter of water weights 1 gram. Therefore the density of water equals 1.

Think I got i all right. It's a couple of years ago since I last made such a homemade test. BTW with a neolithic ax-head that is possibly made of carbonaceous chondrite.

Link to a site that shows the density of the various types of meteorites:

http://meteorites.wustl.edu/id/density.htm





Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Fri, Mar 04, 2016

Hi Corey.
Thank you very much for your valuable information!

Danny

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Corey Mon, Mar 07, 2016

You're welcome! Glad I could help! Alternatively you can contact a gemologist to make the density test. He/she might also be able to determine the refractive index of the crystal structures in the matrix, if such are present. I would recommend you to get some more data on the material before you contact a museum.

Link to an older thread on this board about a carving in a material that look like it could be a pallasite meteorite.

http://asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=29993

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Tue, Mar 08, 2016

Hi Corey,
Once again, thank you for your valuable info and advice. I will look for a gemologist here in Vancouver to check out what material of this spearhead. Cheers!!

Danny

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Tue, Mar 01, 2016

Hello Super,
I had this piece almost two years. I did a little research about ink jade before I bought this spear head also I like the taotie motif.(Taotie was one of the nine sons of the dragon,taotie was number 5 son) Yes the end was hollow and thank you for your reply and I am still try to find out if this one modern or not. The first picture was posted by the seller, the second picture I took under sunlight and the third picture under strong flash light.

Danny







Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Tue, Mar 01, 2016

Super, This jade color is dark (black)and under sunlight , it shows green patches all over. Also it can scratch glass easily. I bought this piece from the guy lived in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
Here is a few close up pictures on the surface of this object included some tool marks. Thank you!

Danny







Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Super Wed, Mar 02, 2016

Hi, Danny: Thank you for posting your pictures which show your jade piece to be BLACK instead of silver. I believe the material is more than likely, 墨玉 mo yu or ink jade like you said. To be sure, you can do a scratch test on it and see what color you would see after the scratch. I was real surprised to see magnet could stick to it though.

True black nephrite jade is very rare. I believe once they had some mined from Wyoming, USA but now had become extinct. I believe I have some small specimens somewhere. Usually they are real dark green or black mixed with green, a piece of truly black nephrite jade is extremely rare and more difficult to find than white Hetian nephrite jade. I had once seen a pretty good sized, beautifully carved water buffalo statue that was made of black Xinjiang (Hetian?) nephrite jade, for sales on the web site of Sam Bernstein, one of the famous jade experts in the States. A picture of it may still be in this forum somewhere. I believe that black nephrite jade buffalo was for sales for around US$ 20k, more than I could afford to pay at that time. If I did have the money, I would have bought it because I believe by now just material cost alone would be doubled.

His web site is:
http://bernsteinjadeart.com/jade.html

Please note that I do not personally know Mr. Bernstein and had not bought anything from him or ever had any business transactions with him. Therefore, I am not endorsing him in any manners.
But unlike a lot of self-proclaimed jade experts, he was quite humble and would not offer his expert opinions on jade easily.

I also have a large piece of Australian black nephrite jade rock which was actually bright red in its outer appearance but final jade pieces tht were made of it are absolutely black. There were once on eBay quite a few large or smaller sized Hongshan jade pieces that were made of black colored jade, however the large black pieces were only black outside and white inside (powder) and smaller pieces while were black and could not be scratched, their densities were too low to be nephrite jade. (there were indeed some dark serpentine jade) I did see a few true black nephrite Hongshan style pieces in my friend's collection. They felt like metal, sounded like metal, could not be scratched but with a more rustic (rough) appearance, not smooth like yours.

Therefore unless we can do a density test on your piece, we cannot know for sure whether it was made of nephrite or? I was also puzzled with a taotie being carved on a spear head, which was almost like a modern fantasy piece to me. I had not seen anything like it. Of course, I can be wrong. More studies may be necessary. I do believe that Mr. Bernstein does appraise jade pieces for a fee or you can send pictures of it to other reputable auction houses for their opinions. Thanks for sharing. Super

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Fri, Mar 04, 2016

Hi Super,
Thank you so much for your advices. You are right that this piece needs more studies. I am leaning towards Pallasite Meteorite then a (mo yu) Ink Jade because of magnet do stick to this spearhead. Like you said dark jade don't stick to magnet. Anyways, both materials are great for this spearhead and next is find out it's age!

Danny

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Fri, Mar 04, 2016

Hi Super,
I just did a scratch test on the spearhead. I use a new razor blade and press hard and slice on the surface of this piece. A white line appears on the surface. I gentle rubbed it with my thumb and the white line is gone and no scratch mark left on the surface. Next is to do a density test.
Thank you again for your advices! It were very helpful to me!

Danny

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Sat, Mar 26, 2016

Hi Super,
I want to thank you for your advices and this Jade Spear Head turn out to be nephrite after I had it appraised.

Danny



Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Randy Tue, Mar 01, 2016

The polished slab is a Pallasite Meteorite, your images appear to display the same type structure. There is enough nickel in the iron in pallasites to patina, not rust. I'm attaching a link to an example.

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Wed, Mar 02, 2016

Hi Randy,
Thank you for your info and comment. When I first got this piece, there were lots of rust at the bottom of the hollow handle. This picture still shows some rust after I clean it.

Danny



Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Wed, Mar 02, 2016

Hi Randy,
Would you please send me the link to an example of the Pallasite Meteorite. Thank you!

Danny

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Randy Thu, Mar 03, 2016

Here is one link, a google search turns up many more. If you live near a good museum of natural history a curator might be able to help determine the material it's made of. http://www.meteorite.com/fukang-meteorite/

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Fri, Mar 04, 2016

Hi Randy,

Thank you so much for your reply! I am going to San Francisco in May and I hope someone in Asian Art Museum will help to determine this spearhead material it's made of.

Danny







Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Paola Di Maio Sat, Nov 17, 2018

Hellow. Over the years in Asia I collected a few similar arterfacts. the material is heavy, magnetic, rusty and some pieces have olivine in it magnetite attracts the magnet, but does not rust. do not leave a streak.
I have not yet had them tested, but my guess is that they are ancient meteorites which were hand carved and now traded as something curious and unspecified. they are invaluable and beautiful, I did not know then name of that pattern, one of my pieces has the same pattern, can you share more info on th design> they are original, and possibly thousands of years old. you can evaluate their agefromthe crystals grow from the the carved grooves. they are magnificent, one of these pieces is chipped so I can look inside and it has some silver like specs.

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Tue, Nov 20, 2018

Hi Paola,
Thank you for your great info! This piece was nephrite. I am still studying the tool marks and the mineral change with a microscope. Under the electronic microscope, I saw some tiny black iron balls and crystals in this spearhead. I think this is an old piece.

Danny

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Paola DM Tue, Nov 20, 2018

Thank you Danny.

Nephrite does not attract a magnet, does it?

May I ask, who identified the piece a nephrite?
In my specimen, the sparkling specks are presumed to be nickel (as in nicked iron meteorite in my case) and the green patches are transparent, olivine or other similar glass type transparent mineral.
But I d be happy to learn more. My assumption is based on the fact that the pieces attract magnets fairly strongly.

Some dark greeen non magnetic pieces in my collection are definitely jades, they have similar decorations and carvings but tey dont stick to the magnet.

China is massive, with civilizations going back thousands of years
Referencing another thread, about Hongshan pieces: there are A LOT of original ancient arterfacts in markets, they are not always similar/comparable to each other. Some hoof shapes are delicate and thin, but some are chunky and rough. they can still both genuine artefacts, made in different times and places.

I have learned to evaluate the age based on x10 view of the carving, if it's old, it shows crystallisation and other types of crusts growing in the grooves which are also irregular lines when looked under magnification. these pieces made in modern times would cost a fortune.

My most important realizatiion is that even in ancient times there used to be 'duplicates' for example I have some of turquoise artefacts made of a very soft and light torquoise like material, possibly lower quality stone or even manufactured paste of sort, but the carvings seem still ancient.

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: DANNY Wed, Nov 21, 2018

Hi Paolo,
This piece was CGL in Vancouver. Done by professional gemmologists.The certificate I posted above as a natural nephrite with no enhancement. I believe this dark jade contains lots of iron therefor it stick with magnet. I will post a few close up picture and hope you or someone can determine if it was old tool works or modern power tool works. The taotie pattern on this spearhead was double raised lines and this pattern often found in Shang dynasty bronze objects. Once gain, thank you for you comments.







Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: pdm Mon, Dec 03, 2018

Thanks again for sharing. this is so fascinating. I d like to (respectfully) suggest the hypothesis that nephrite and meteorites may share some characteristics and that a gemologist may have never seen a piece of meteorite containing jade like patches.so it would depend what exactly has the gemology tested? from the certificate, it appears that they used the refractivity test, but I speculate that the refractivity index of the green patches would have a different result than the refractivity index of the darker patches-
the certificate does not show which portion of the specimen has the RI reported in the cert -
I suggest you ask the gemologist who carried out the test to specify which test was carried out in which part of the specimen, and if the refractivity index is the same in both.- I d be surprised if that is the case, as I expect light to go through differently in the green bits than the black solid bits, what do you think?
to be absolutely sure this is nephrite, further tests may have to carried out, such as Raman

I am not aware of any nephrite jade sticking to a magnet, even if it contains iron.

its the shape of the patches that to me gives away the possibility this piece could be pallasite in meteorite-

a conventional gemologist may not have this information and conclude its nephrite based on what the findings are most similar to. Gemologist typically have a narrow spectrum of data they work with.
But feel free to ignore my suggestion.
The spheres in meteorites are called chondrules, are you sure this is what not you are looking at?
Finally, have you dimmed the lights and shine a powerful flash torchlight through the specimen to see if any parts of it are transparent. My item light shines through perfectly some spots.

its a fantastic piece.

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: DANNY Mon, Dec 03, 2018

Hello PDM,
Once again, thank you for your valuable information. Do you know where I can do a Raman in Vancouver BC? Is it expansive to the Raman?
I will contact the gemologist to discuss about this matter.

Danny

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Paola Di Maio Mon, Dec 10, 2018

I think the easiest test is to check if the spheres on your specimen under microscope turn out to be chondroles (I cant spell it properly). take a magnified pic of the balls and send it to some meteorite expert. if the spheres are chondroles then you need to further test I think (they are only found in meteorites afaik, but check)
this is verifialble only with visual inspection of the magnified pic
if this doesnot work, try to drill a tiny hole in the inderior of the handle, where it would not visible, to draw out sufficint powder (1-3 grams?) for a lab test, then ship it to some specialised meteorite testing lab. For a list of Raman test labs in Canada, you may have to google.
there are some cool labs in universities
http://meteorite-identification.com/verification.html

let us know the results as I have a few specimen myself



Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: pdm Mon, Dec 03, 2018

Regarding the spheres, if I were you I d try to rule out they are chondrites (see pic linked below)
You mentioned rust bits, was the rust only present in the hole where the spear was supposedly positioned? (if so, the rust may have come from some iron pole it was stuck to, if not, if the rust is present elsewhere on the specimen, then it could be the natural oxidation occurring in stony-iron meteorites)
Finally I hypothesize this is hand carved because the shape of the curves is imperfect, but even hand carved implies the use of some tool, any material harder than the specimen itself can be used as tool to carve it, other than diamond, for example jade jadeite tool would in theory carve nephrite.



Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: DANNY Mon, Dec 03, 2018

Hi PDM,
Thank you for sending this beautiful picture!
The only rust that I can see is inside the hollow handle. Also I did talked to one of the gemologist and he said he need to take a small part from my spearhead to sent them to UBC to analyze what mineral is in this piece. I don't think I will do it since they have to do a destructive test. Is he specific gravity test work to determinate if this was a meteorite??THX!

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Paola Di Maio Fri, Dec 07, 2018

the specific gravity test may only work if the nephrite jade and metoerite in question have different specific gravity weight. for example, basalt from earth, and basalt from the moon can be told apart because they have different specific gravity (the one from the moon being a bit lighter) if however they coincidentally have the same sg then this test wont work. the only issue I have with the identification of the gemologist is that nephrite does not generally attract a magnet, while your specimen does, (of course there may be the odd exception) this alone would suggest further identification may be required. you may discuss this with the person who signed your certificate. there may be other tests, keep an open mind and the truth will surface, with time.
I am glad you like the chonondrule picture :-)

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Mon, Dec 10, 2018

Hi Paola,
Thank again for your great information! Will density test tell the difference between nephrite and pallasite? I post a few more close up pictures for clues.

Danny







Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: DANNY Wed, Dec 05, 2018

Hello PDM.
The rust spot is at the bottom of the handle. You might be right that this spearhead could be other material then nephrite. If this piece was a space rock, there is a great chance this is an old piece. Once again, thank you for your great advices.

Danny







Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: pdm Tue, Nov 20, 2018

I dont want to insist, but look at the Fukang meteorite, black with green patches.
link to pic pasted below-

URL Title :https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwG7nrBN1IlPE2eOjt2vyL1ubpO0VhNDhxzaOyIn-VM/edit?usp=sharing


Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: Danny Sat, Mar 05, 2016

Correction on the weight of this spearhead.
Was 486 grams instead of 846 grams.

Subject:Re: JADE SPEAR HEAD
Posted By: DANNY Thu, Nov 22, 2018

SOME CLOSE UP PICTURES OF THE TAOTIE PATTERN ON THIS SPEARHEAD. HOPEFULLY SOMEONE CAN HELP TO SEE IF THE TOOL MARKS ON THIS PIECE WAS OLD OR MODERN. THANKS AND ALL COMMENTS ARE WELCOME.

DANNY








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