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Subject:tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: kk Wed, Feb 10, 2010 IP: 76.204.177.85

This is last part of the tool mark series. All are Hongshan jades. Some of the pieces I am sure you recognize them from books. Many are from 4,5,6,7000 years ago. Enjoy!

a lot of them have surface wear and little tool marks are visible on them, but some still have fine parallel grinding lines. They are great reference to show the local jade materials and surface stains from burial As you may know Hongshan people didn't have hetain jades which is thousands of mile away.

Most pictures are lot way bigger than 100K. so I post pictures through internet hosting website, so pictures are only up for a months or two. please save them to your computer if you like to use them as reference materials in the future.

I may not answer all questions an comments and They are all authentic museum pieces like my last post, but of course you don't have to believe what I said.

More picture is coming soon.

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Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: John R Wed, Feb 10, 2010

kk,
I do not see the link for the larger pictures.
Could you please list it.
I have noticed that when I see "hand tool"
marks on older jades, that the jade will
sometimes resist the carver, resulting in a
minor change of direction. A modern tool,
because of its extremely high speed, and
diamond encrusted bit, will gouge out its
path, sometimes showing unintended offline
or off the intended path tool marks. It is
also relatively easy to see when a piece has
been sandblasted [thanks Anita] as the gloss
does not reflect the true satin finish of a time
consuming hand polished jade.

Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: kk Thu, Feb 11, 2010

Here are More close ups on the C dragon. U can see the heavy patina from burial. Any one know what kind of jade material it made from? The craftsmanship is amazing for something 5-6 thousands year ago!!


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Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: kk Thu, Feb 11, 2010

here is the the famous pig dragon. Check out the tools mark in the drilling holes.

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Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: kk Thu, Feb 11, 2010

more

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Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: kk Thu, Feb 11, 2010

more.

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Subject:Cautions!
Posted By: Bill Thu, Feb 11, 2010

Hi, KK:

I am grateful for your posting pictures of jade carvings from different Chinese era including those that are from Hongshan Dynasty and as a result your postings had stimulated and attracted a lot of discussions recently in this forum. However, I must caution you to remain open-minded and not to be easily discouraged or easily offended by any remarks made by any other members toward your postings. I know how that felt because I had been in your shoes before. I must also caution you in not leading yourself into believing that you can easily understand or show what Hongshan tool marks would or should look like by simply posting "authentic museum Hongshan pieces" here. It is quite possible that you might have studied Hongshan jades for a long time and might have direct accesses to many "authentic" Hongshan jade carvings including those that were exvacated from known Hongshan sites or those that were currently displayed in museums. However, without assistance from Hongshan gurus such as Prof. Guo Dashun, you may not know what you are realling looking at. It is sad that Dr. David Anderson, who had the best opporunities to do the above due to his friendship with Prof. Guo Dashun, had instead tried to prove Prof. Guo Dashu was wrong and he was right in what should consider "authentic" Hongshan jade carvings and therefore inadvertently missed the chances in studying authentic HS jade carvings with Prof. Guo in China.

Many of the forum members here, including Diasai and even A Mui had studied and collected (or tried to) "Hongshan" jades for a long time and many of us had spent a lot of time in studying them. Several collectors I had met in here or Chicochai had spent thousands of dollars in purchasing both HS jade carvings and HS jade books. However, none of us could come to the concensus the best ways in how to attribute or authenticate Hongshan jade carvings.

First of all, there does not seem to have a consensus in how long Hongshan culture was, some said 5,000 years, some said 2000+, some said might be 6 to 7,000 years BC. However, nobody seemed to know when the Hongshan culture started and ended, why it ended and what happened to all the Hongshan people. Some believe the current Mongolians are the descendents of the Hongshan people.

Many of us cannot even agree in the total numbers of authentic Hongshan jade carvings that still exist today. Some said 300 pieces based on the number of authentic pieces owned by museums in China or those that were excavated. Unforunately, we cannot even have a total tally of all the excavated HS pieces or even their pictures, only a few of the most famous one. Some believe since HS culture has such a long history, even if they only made one jade piece per year, there should be several thousands or even 10,000 authentic pieces available. In short, nobody know for sure.

Secondly, what exactly do you consider "authentic Hongshan jade carvings"?

You said "All are Hongshan jades". I would like to ask, "are they all authentic"?

You said, they are "all authentic museum pieces".
Please forgive me and please DO NOT get upset because I am not doubting you. I just have to caution you that first of all not ALL museum pieces are authentic and secondly not ALL museum pieces were excavated pieces.

Case in point, the National Palace Museum in Taiwan paid a large amount of money for a few "authentic" HS pieces a few years ago, displayed them only to find that they were fakes, not even good fakes.

Secondly, the large C dragon you show here is very famous and is probably one of the known 5 (or 6) known Hongshan C-dragons in China. However, if my memory serves me correctly, none of the Hongshan C draongs were ever excavated but was instead discovered second-handedly. (*Please correct me if I am wrong).

Lastly, your statement: " They are great reference to show the local jade materials and surface stains from burial As you may know Hongshan people didn't have hetain jades which is thousands of mile away" is also debatable.

There is still no consensus in what the most credible jade materials were used in the making of authentic Hongshan jades. Even Hongshan jade experts in China disagreed with each other. Many HS jade collectors believe the majority of authentic HS jades were made of Xiu Yan jade (Xiu Yu) which were either bowenite or serpentine. They did not believe there were any that were made of nephrite jade because nephrite jade were not found in Liaoning. However, according to an article written by Mr. Zhou Nam-Chuang (or Quang?), this is not correct. There were indeed authentic Hongshan jade carving made of a type of high quality and beautiful nephrite jade that is similar to Hetian jade (I said similar, not identical) and for a while it puzzled a lot of HS jade experts in China because they could not figure out how Hetian jade could be transported all the way from Hetian to Liaoning. Later researches (even in one of the TV link provided by you) shows that at one time there were indeed nephrite mined near Laioning and were used in the making of authentic Hongshan jade carvings.

There are simply not that many jade books discussing the tool marks found in Hongshan jade carvings. I only found a Chinese one and I do not necessarily totally agree with it or understand it since I have no direct accesses to authentic excavated HS jade carvings. However, the author of the book did study authentic excavated HS jade carvings owned by Chinese musuems.

Therefore, I believe we must share togehter what little we may know about HS jade carvings and cannot assume that any one of us, including myself, really know what we are talking about. Some times I feel it is like the Blind leading the Blind.

I sincerely hope you will not get offended with what I said and will continue in posting your HS jades because you had done an excellent job. But please DO tell us where they come from when you post the pictures, it will help us a lot. Thank you.

Bill

Subject:Re: Cautions!
Posted By: Anita Mui Thu, Feb 11, 2010

Here are More close ups on the C dragon. U can see the heavy patina from burial. Any one know what kind of jade material it made from? The craftsmanship is amazing for something 5-6 thousands year ago!!

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They are not from the museum sample you posted on the top, possibly a fake from somewhere.


Subject:Readers beware!
Posted By: Anita Mui Thu, Feb 11, 2010

Dear KK

The first "C" dragon matches museum sample, but craving detail pictures are not from it. Possibly a fake sneaks in.

No need to talk about other Hongshan replicas from Chinese commercial forums you posted.

Readers beware.

Have fun
Anita



Subject:Re: Cautions!
Posted By: kk Fri, Feb 12, 2010

John,
The links are the pictures. They are much bigger than 100K AAF restriction to show you the details.

Bill,
not offend at all. Don’t worry; I will post more pictures, but it will be nice if you keep your respond short.

I don’t think we disagree on the HS jade material; yes, most are Yiu Yu but a few are local stones and few possible local nephrite. Any idea what type of jade “C” dragon is made from? Hetian jade found in Xinjiang near Hetian only. Most Ming Qing jades are hetain jades.

Since you are talking about fakes in National Palace Museum in Taiwan. I will post a few HS jades from their collection; you tell me if they are real or not. Please give reasons to back up your claims. I will give out the answer later.

HS jades from National Palace Museum in Taiwan are coming tomorrow. It is past mid night and I have to go to bed.

Subject:The no. 1 Chinese jade dragon - Sanxing Tala C dragon
Posted By: Bill Mon, Feb 15, 2010

The Number 1 Chinese jade dragon was discovered in 1971 at the Sanxing Tala village, Ongniud Qi, Chifeng city, Inner Monogolia, China 内蒙古赤峰市翁牛特旗三星他拉村

It was made of a type of Bi Yu 碧玉 (green nephrite jade)that resembles the 新疆瑪納斯碧玉Manasia Bi Yu (green jade or blue green jade) found later in Manasia county, XinJiang (Manasia River is at the northern foot of Tian Shan Mountain). Its original source may be northeastern China, Inner Mongolia, or inside the Mongolian kingdom or Russia (far east) that were adjacent to the Hongshan culture area, but did not seem likely that it was mined inside the Hongshan area. The exact source of this type of green jade is still waiting to be determined.

Please allow me to quote this from my Chinese Hetian jade seller friend, Victor (in China) in his explanation of Bi Yu:

"Chinese call almost all kinds of beautiful precious stone as "Yu" (corresponding English word of jade), but "Bi Yu" is only called for nephrite, such as Canada Bi Yu (BC jade nephrite), Russian Bi Yu (Siberia nephrite), Xingjiang Bi Yu (including Manasi nephrite), Qinghai Bi Yu (from Golmud city, etc) etc."

His statement is quite similar to what was summarized here:

Basically, the Manasi Bi Yu is very similar to the Bi Yu of BC (Canada). Bi Yu can be found in:

CHINA
Xinjiang - Hetian, Manasia
QingHai - Golmud city

CANADA
British Columbia

RUSSIA
Siberia and other areas.

U.S.A.
Big Sur, California/Washington state

Bi yu is supposed to contain at least 90% of tremolite. The best one are the dark green (bluish green or almost black-green color) one. The Manasi bi yu may contain black spots and black patches inside its jade structure.

This reminds me in the books written by S. Howard Hansford, he mentioned that somebody bought a gigantic Siberian Bi Yu jade boulder around 1929 in Beijing, China, sold it and many imitation archaic jades were made from this Siberian Bi Yu that contains black dots and patches inside its structure. They were sold to tourists who took them back to their home countries and some even ended up in their local museums as authentic Chinese archaic jade carvings. Once a while I will see a few very nice vintage spinach jade carvings contains these unique black dots and patches for sales and I would immediately recognize them as those that were made of Siberian bi yu. However, not all Siberian nephrite jade (bi yu) will contain this type of unique black dots/patches.

Recently, this type of Bi Yu was used as the jade embedded in the bronze medals in the Olympic in China. I do not know whether it came from Hetian, Qinghai or Manasi (the Manasia mine was closed for a while and reopened in the early 70s). However, I believe there are still a lot of them (leftover material) available and were used in the making of "cheap" modern jade carvings and are listed for sales on eBay. I was extremely lucky in acquiring a pair of 39 mm medicine nephrite jade balls (each weigh around 100 gram) made of this type of Bi Yu (almost black color) for about US $40. If any members are interested in obtaining some cheap examples of Bi Yu from China,now is the best time because right now they are even cheaper than BC nephrite jade. This will not last long.

Also, while the material used to make this No. 1 Chinese jade dragon is indeed a type of bi yu, its original source still cannot be identified.

For more information about Hongshan jade material, please go to:
http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=41673

About Manasia Bi Yu:

http://news.socang.com/channel/jade/accidence/20080912/035932.shtml

新疆盛产宝玉石的历史悠久,素有“宝玉石之乡”的称谓。被称为“昆山之玉”的和田玉更是古今闻名,享誉中外,在宝玉石市场上深受欢迎。然而在新疆北疆玛纳斯县的天山深处,还盛产碧玉,也被称为“天山碧玉”或“玛纳斯碧玉”。

“碧玉”是软玉(和田玉)的一个品种,意即“绿玉”。碧玉的特色是玉质呈鲜绿-碧绿-暗绿色,玉石中常常含有黑点等特征(为磁铁矿、铬尖晶石等杂质)。碧玉以色青绿-鲜绿者为贵,有黑色杂质、色淡的次之,不过大片的绿色与黑色星点的搭配,也形成一种自然的美。

玛纳斯出产的碧玉颜色鲜艳,玉质细腻,光泽良好,能和昆仑山的和田玉相媲美。它与世界著名的“加拿大碧玉”为同一类型,均与超基性岩的变质作用有关。历史上玛纳斯以出产大块的碧玉子料而闻名,随着全国范围的玉石热、玉石价格的飚升,近年来又有不少巨大的碧玉原料面世,着实为玉石行业添了一把火。

碧玉也是一种透闪石玉,是由超基性岩浆岩蚀变后形成的软玉。世界范围内的软玉除昆仑山出产外,其它如俄罗斯、北美洲、大洋州等地都有出产,颜色呈现不同程度的绿色。新疆天山出产的碧玉又称玛纳斯碧玉,呈灰绿、深绿、墨绿色,夹有黑斑、黑点或玉筋的质量稍差。碧玉含透闪石90%以上,质地细腻、半透明、呈油脂光泽,为中档玉石。色调不均匀且带灰色和黑色斑点,以颜色纯正的墨绿色为上品。碧玉颜色浓重,色相庄严,适合雕刻大件山水摆件或厚重古朴的器皿,故宫的玉石收藏中有不少优秀的碧玉精品。
(透闪石(角闪石变种)(Amphibole var. Tremolite))
新疆玛纳斯含碧玉矿的超基性岩体分布于安集海-玛纳斯-清水河一带。处于北天山超基性岩带的东段。范围东西长30多公里,宽数百米,矿点10余处,储量丰富,新疆自治区地质博物馆也收藏展出了几块碧绿润泽的玛纳斯碧玉的样品。目前已发现碧玉矿及矿点六处,其中以黄台子碧玉矿为最主。另外在河流和冰川的冲积层中也经常可以拣到碧玉的卵石。

碧玉的矿体一般长几米到几百米,宽几十厘米至几米,呈透镜状或豆荚状,边缘质量差,矿体中部质量比较好。碧玉原料也有山料与籽料,山料为绿色的块状、棱角状,籽料为砾状或卵石状。碧玉抛光面呈油脂光泽,微透至半透明,质地坚韧。主要矿物为纤维状、叶片状、毡状的透闪石,含量85—95%。碧玉中透闪石矿物晶体极小,多合并成羽片状,组成纤维交织结构或毡状结构。其次有一部分颗粒稍大的针柱状透闪石矿物,占5—15%,无定向分布于纤维状透闪石之间,造成一些玉石的“花”。此外,碧玉还含有多种杂质矿物,主要为铬尖晶石、磁铁矿、钛铁矿、蛇纹石、碳酸盐以及一些金属硫化物。碧玉由于继承了超基性围岩的矿物质,因此富含铁、铜、铬、镍、钛、钒、钴等金属元素,是软玉中微量元素最为丰富的品种。

新疆玛纳斯碧玉矿在古代就已经开采,历史悠久,清代即已著名。据史料记载早在200余年前的清代乾隆年间,清政府已在玛纳斯设官办绿玉厂。清嘉庆年间成书的《三州辑略》称:“玛纳斯城百余里,名清水泉。又西百余里,名后沟。又西百余里,名大沟,皆产绿玉。乾隆五十四年(1789)封闭绿玉矿,禁止开采。”

《新疆图志-实业志(二)》中对玛纳斯县清水河出产的碧玉曾有一段注文称;“玛纳斯河源清,产玉,故名清水河。玉色黝碧,有文采,璞(引者;即石包玉)大者重数十余斤。又北流百里,入乌兰乌苏河中,多碧玉。清水河之西,乌兰乌苏之东有库克河(引者:又名宁家河),其源出奇喇图鲁山中,多绿玉,旧设绿玉厂。又绥来城西之百余里,曰后沟,曰大沟,均产绿玉。”

《新疆图说》还介绍:“奇喇图鲁山,在绥来县城南一百八十里,金版玉底。”这就是说河两岸盛产砂金,河底又产玉石,真是“金玉之乡”。

《西域图志》载:“准噶尔部玉名哈司,色多青碧,不如和阗远甚” 。

清代绿玉厂停止开采以后,多年来原生碧玉矿口一直不为人所知。在漫长的历史时期,玛纳斯碧玉的原生矿长期埋没在地下,没有开发。据说在1928年前后曾有私商开采玉石,但不久就杳无音讯,1935年,苏联人M..萨依托夫曾在这里进行地质调查,但没有报告发现的矿点。直到1973年,国家轻工业部召开的一次全国宝玉石会议上提出要对新疆的碧玉资源应该早日查清矿源,开发利用。经过新疆地质局五大队(第二区域地质调查队)几次派人进入深山,普查矿源,终于在 1973年内于玛纳斯南山一带找到了玉石的原生产地。当地政府十分重视,就在1974年上马,建起了玛纳斯玉石厂,当年出产碧玉数十吨,供应上海、扬州、广州等地的十多家玉雕厂。同时在玛纳斯县成立了玉雕厂,雕刻仿古炉瓶、花薰、碗、酒杯、手镯、健身球等产品。

1975年,在玛纳斯河红坑开采出一块750千克的大碧玉,经扬州玉器厂雕琢成国宝级的玉雕“石刻聚珍图”山子,收藏于位于北京复兴门的中国工艺美术馆。这块碧玉原料产于新疆玛纳斯地区,重达一千余公斤,高120公分,宽90公分,厚60公分。雕件色泽碧绿深沉,玉质细润,浑然天成。作者充分利用其天然优美的玉石造型,描绘了我国四川乐山大佛、大足石刻、河南的龙门石窟和山西大同的云岗石窟等石刻艺术宝藏中的珍品,使四大名山石窟汇聚一石,共融于碧绿的山水之中。

Subject: Chinese Olympic bronze medals - made of Qing Yu
Posted By: Bill Tue, Feb 16, 2010

My friend, Victor, who seems to know a lot about Chinese terminology used for jade in China corrected me that the jade material used in making of the Chinese Olympic bronze medals and my 39 mm medicine balls are not Bi Yu (green nephrite jade) but instead Qing Yu (Cyan Green nephrite jade). Since cyan means blue, that means Qing Yu is the bluish-green nephrite jade.
I stand corrected.

Bill

Subject:not even close
Posted By: Anita Mui Fri, Feb 12, 2010

KK

Only fake Hongshan hair hoofs were made that small as souvenir.

The real thing was under the head, or next to head, or on the chest of the dead, never been found that small as served as pendant like the one you have.

Plenty of small hair hoofs selling as souvenir at tourist venue in HK and China.



Subject:Re: Cautions!
Posted By: kk Fri, Feb 12, 2010


This group is from National Palace Museum in Taiwan. Real or not??? Also please see the irregular openings, they are not perfect circle cut by the round drilling. Any idea how they were made?

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Subject:more pic dragons and other
Posted By: kk Fri, Feb 12, 2010

More pig dragons and other. Believed or not? ;)

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Subject:army of Hongshan jades.
Posted By: kk Fri, Feb 12, 2010

army of Hongshan jades.

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Subject:Re: army of Hongshan jades.
Posted By: LEE Sun, Feb 14, 2010

KK, thanks for posting these authentic hongshan jade pictures. They have good patina and correct calcification marks especially visible on your last few pictures- the brown whitish patches on the side of the slit rings. I hope Bill and Anita gets a look at these. You must be a curator of a Chinese museum. Anyway thanks for the pics. I am still looking for my Hongshan jade pieces. When I find them I will take some pics for your assesment.

Subject:It is just not that easy!
Posted By: Bill Mon, Feb 15, 2010

Lee:

While I respect your expertise in jade, however I am surprised and a little bit disturbed with your statement:

"I hope Bill and Anita gets a look at these."

What exactly are you trying to imply?
that Anita and I are both too BLIND to see ALL the HS pieces posted by KK here are "authentic"?

I believe it is FOOLISH to attribute any jade pieces based on pictures alone, no matter how high resolution they may be because there would be a lot one would miss. Mr. Eric Hoffman absolutley refused to do so, do you believe KK and you may know more about jade than him?

Do you believe you can attribut a Liangzhu jade piece by pictures alone without being able to examine closely at their tool marks? One time a forum member posted eight pieces of Liangzhu jade carvings in this forum, with four pieces being authentic excavated pieces and four pieces being fakes. He asked other members to identify them but nobody would attempt to do so except me. I got them all correct not because I really knew my stuff but because I had read a lot of jade books and had seen all the four authentic pieces on books before. Do you know that there are really not that many jade books that discuss what types of tool marks were being found on authetnic Laingzhu jade pieces? Without being able to know what exactly their tool marks should look like, even one would post all these authentic Lianzhu jade pieces in this forum, what can one truly learn?

Patina and calcification alone cannot and will not make any jade pieces authentic and will not make them Hongshan. How can you tell a piece that is 1,000 BC from a piece that is 3,000 BC? Or for that matter one was made in 500 AD?
How can you tell from a simple slit ring that it is Hongshan but not other Neolithic cultures? Most difficult of all, how can you convince a collector to pay large sum of money for it because it is indeed authentic?

Is it common to have any authetnic Hongshan jade pieces to be chicken bone white (color) like that "authentic" chicken-bone-white piece posted here by KK? Why or why not?

Is it possible to have vermilion (cinnabar, mercuric sulfide) found on authentic Hongshan jade carvings? Why or why not?

Are there any authentic Hongshan jade turtle carapace?

You see, while I applaud KK's effort in posting all these pictures of jade carvings in his series of "tool marks" and I do believe many of those Shang/Zhou/Spring-Autumn, Warring States pieces posted by him could be authentic based on their pictures. The problem is he did not really start a "genuine" discussion of "tool marks" because there were nowhere he would take time to explain how any of these tool marks were made and made with what types of carving tools. Also, to make matters more complicated, he did not quote the sources of all these pictures or their correct attributions (ages, dynasties, material, etc.) and some of those pieces were only shown partially in their pictures. Did he take all these pictures himself or own all these picturs? Now it may be indeed like you said, that he might be a curator of museum (I doubt it though) and therefore he might be reluctant to quote the sources of his pictures.

You see, both of you and KK seemed to get offended when Robert started asking questions about tool marks left on one of the jade carvings or what type of tools were used to make such tool mark:

http://asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=41327

KK responded to Robert:

"The diagonal line was in cut on thin spinning wheel powered by foot (much like an old fashion sawing machine), lost abrasive and water was added on the wheel to make the cut. They did not use metal rasp. ."

"Robert,I try to answer your question while no one else did, but you did not show any appreciation. That is OK . I will not respond to any more of your question and interpretation of wheel grinding and “the huge blob of solder”. Like the old monk said I can’t offer you a cup of good tea while your cup is already full of you own."

and

"I probably have more “special access” to the museum piece than you can imagine.
And yes! All pre history /Hongshan jade pictures will come from some of the best known Museums in main land China and Taiwan. "

You said,

"Hi Rob, obviously you have no experience with jade."

It may indeed be true that Robert has very little experience with jade, however he seems to have experience in lapidary while many of jade experts/collectors generally do not have any experiences with them. Therefore, it is very possible that he may contribute a lot in the discussion of tool marks found on jade carvings and we may learn a lot from him.

You see, both of you and KK seemed to believe all these tool marks on all these "authentic" Shang/Zhou/AP-WS pieces were made with rotary tools (disc or tu). Well, you can both be correct or you could both be wrong.

Prof. S Howard Hansford did not believe rotary tools for jade carvings were invented until the Iron Age and these rotary tools were made with iron. Therefore, in early Zhou dynasty (or early part of Wester Zhou), there might not be any rotary tools.

Furthermore, KK believes there were not ONLY rotary tools but also rotary tools that were powered by foot in the making of these Shang/Zhous. In Mr. Yang Boda's jade book series, they called it "rotary tool machine" (to be differentiaed from manual rotary tools held by hand only). While it may be true if they are Ming or Qing jade carvings, however, I do not believe foot-powered rotary tools were being employed as early as either Shang dynasty or even Zhou dynasty, if these rotary tool machines were employed, then they would be powered by hand (like with a bow or a machine that sits on the floor and powered by hand). However, it is quite possible that rotary tools might be indeed being employed as early as Neolithic time or even during Zhou dynasty because Mr. Yang Boda did mention something about wheel cutting in Zhou. Therefore, I plan to submit a thread later in disucssing the opinions of Hansford and Yang toward rotary tools in the making of archaic Chinese jade carvings.

The main obstacle, however, there would be absolutely no way for any of us to decide if any of thsee tool marks, especially the tiny one referred by Robert, was made with rotary tool (wheel-cutting) or filing/rasping (hand-held tools) based on such low resultion pictures.

In the article, "The identification of carving techniques on Chinese jade" written by Magaret Sax, et al:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WH8-4CDJH1H-2&_user=930789&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1207451784&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000048424&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=930789&md5=d7cd004bf092b026d24e833f90169542

According to this article, even under SEM (Scanning Electronic Microscope), if observed from above, there are basically no diffence between a tool mark left by a rotary tool (wheel-cut) or by filing or raspong (hand held tool)
(see picture 1 here).

However, if one can see the longitudinal SEM views of both tool marks (one left by wheel cut and one left by filing/rasping) then one will be able to tell. (see pic 2 here)

Now, would KK be able to provide a longitudinal SEM view of that tool mark referred by Robert?

Therefore, it shows it is extremely difficult to tell how any tool marks were being made, with rotary tools (wheel-cut) or from filing/rasping (hand held tools). To make it more complicated, some time both tools were being used on the same carving lines and as a result, one tool mark will cover up another one made with different tools. Sax's article has pretty good discussion about this. Therefore, in essence all of us could be right.

I believe on some of those Shang/Zhous pieces posted by KK, their tool marks could be made by filing/rasping, some could be made by wheel-cutting or a combination of both. I hope I can finish my reading and can post my learnings in a different thread regarding "Were Zhou dynasty jade carvings made with rotary tools?".

In the same token, KK's posting of all these Hongshan pieces here does not serve a lot of purposes, if he will not or cannot present the carving techniques being used in the making of them, demonstrating how any of these tool marks were being made and with what type of tools with his pictures, whether his pieces are "authentic" Hongshan or not will be a moot point.

According to some Hongshan jade literatures, including the one article written by Mr. Zhou Nam Quan (which I had posted in Hongshan jade material, a new thread), there are three different tool marks left on authentic Hongshan jade pieces, with one covering up the other and is therefore very difficult to see, even with close up pictures. You almost have to move your piece back and forth to be able to see them.

May be if you or KK will be generous enough to share your expertise in Hongshan jade carving techniques and tool marks with all of us, that will certainly be helpful to all of us.

Lastly, I sincerely hope you will not be offended by my message and I apologize in advance if I might have said anything that may offend you in the heat of discussion.

I believe, no matter how experienced a person may believe he is in any field of collecting, that is always a chance for that person to be wrong, and a chance that they may learn some new things from even a novice.

Thank you very much.

Bill









Subject:Re: It is just not that easy!
Posted By: LEE Tue, Feb 16, 2010

Hi Bill, I am not at all upset, I appreciate your interest and thought on the matter. Your article was interesting on possibility of different cutting techniques in ancient time. Looking at the SEM images it does appear to be not much difference in the cut whether it is by spinning bur or by wheel or by filing. Well that describes the difficulty in authenticating jade just by cut. I suspect it is a more of a combination of the right material, patina and wear, cut, polish and style. It must have the right look, the right feel and the right cut and sometimes the right provenance before one can claim it as truly authentic eventhough all the above can be forged one way or the other. However I would be happy with a piece with at least 3 correct points, when looking at a photo. One wonders what is the hardest point to fake is it the cut, the feel or the patina- stain inclusion and calcification etc or the style.

Subject:Re: It is just not that easy!
Posted By: LEE Sun, Feb 28, 2010

1) calcified plant root tracks 2) black calcified organic material on inner rim- human skin? 3) gross calcification with traces of cinnabar.







Subject:Re: army of Hongshan jades.
Posted By: Robert Grady Tue, Feb 16, 2010

LEE, what criteria or what logic do you use when positively identifying kk's pics as being "authentic" Hongshan period artefacts? Why are all the "authentic" artefacts in kk's pics uniquely Hongshan period and not some other period? How can you tell a Hongshan bead from any other period's bead? Please enlighten me as to what constitutes a good Hongshan patina versus some other period's patina? What is the correct calcification for Hongshan period artefacts versus any other period? What exactly are the brown-whitish patches you mention? Why are they unique to Hongshan period artefacts and not to some other period? Why do you think kk is a Chinese museum curator and which one could he be since he is posting from California?

You have some "authentic" Hongshan artefacts too?? Wow, that makes two people(even if they are not kk's artefacts, they are still someone's) with lots of "authentic" Hongshan period artefacts! How lucky! What are the odds of owning authentic Hongshan period artefacts when there are only around 300 authentic Hongshan artefacts in total in museums proper? You've both hit the archaic jade JACKPOT I dare say!

I understand why you do not wish to to answer any more questions for my benefit but please consider answering my questions for the benefit of all the readers. I am sure Bill, Ms. Mui and Mr. Allen would be most grateful, especially Bill and Ms. Mui, after having taken a good look at kk's "authentic" Hongshan period artefacts, as is your hope.

Subject:Re: army of Hongshan jades.
Posted By: LEE Sat, Feb 27, 2010

Found my neolithic Hongshan jade. These are some calcification spots that are rather useful in authenticating ancient jade. First is the cloudy calcification patches that are also found on the slit rings that KK posted. Second is the calcification hallow seen in thinly cut jade. Third is the surface fissure staining that can be seen clearly under strong light like on this Han bear.







Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: Anita Mui Thu, Feb 11, 2010

Only "C" dragon is a museum piece, but other are fakes.

Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: kk Sat, Feb 13, 2010



Anita,
You said the C dragon is not from the museum, and changed you mind quickly . Very good! I and glad that you are doing research now.

Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: Anita Mui Sat, Feb 13, 2010

You messed up museum samples with fakes from unknown source.

The details pictures of "C" dragon you showed are from different piece, not from that excavated one.

How can Hongshan "C" dragon have stitches grinding marks from small bronze disc?

Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: pipane Fri, Jul 26, 2019


@Robert Grady,

The same way archaeologist differentiate artefact period… regional specificity, period specificity, patina are characteristic, in the case of Hongshan jade the difficulty reside in the fact that local people did use many kind of jade to produce ornement and ritual pieces.
Then you are wrong when you say there are only around 300 HS jades pieces in national museums collection ! There is thousands, just a few are exposed to public view, let me remind you HS Culture covers a very large geographical area and that the period lasted roughly from BC 4500 to BC2300… not to mention rooms full of terracotta artefact, tools and stone carving...

HS beads patina and shape for instance shows significant differences with Longshan Culture beads or Xiajiadian Culture beads, material varies too. Most of the time a trained eye would spot the difference.

@Anita Mui,
You are wrong again, ALL of the above HS pieces are 100% genuine, if they are not the propriety of a museum they belong to university collection or some private collector and have been published before in HS jade reference book in China. I have seen many of them before. some of them were in display in exhibition I visited. Others are in National museum collection and read articles about them.
I respect your knowledge about Chinese Culture, but frankly speaking as I experimented in this forum your expertise on archaic jade and old jade is close to nulle. How can you rule out museums pieces from being genuine just like that ? Or explain where would you get your expertise and experience about HS jade living in HK ?

@LEE I can’t say if your jade are actually old but I can tell you for sure they are not HS culture jade, jade type and shape doesn’t match with HS jade.








Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: Robert Grady Sun, Feb 14, 2010

I recognize, same as Ms. Mui, only ONE "C" dragon in all the pics shown by kk as coming from a museum proper. (The rest RESEMBLE stuff from Mr. Xu's "private" collection illustrated in his self authored "Hongshan Jade Collection Book". .....if y'all know what I mean. )

Kk, are you also not answering Bill's questions anymore besides mine and Ms. Mui's?




Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: Anita Mui Sun, Feb 14, 2010

KK

You said

Anita,
You said the C dragon is not from the museum, and changed you mind quickly . Very good! I and glad that you are doing research now.

******************************
My reply:

I just saw your 1st set of "C" dragon down to the hoof and axe.

I posted my reply at the same time or before you posted National Palace Museum Taipei and other American and Chinese Hongshan jade Museum pieces.

All post will get struck in AAF server for 12 to 24 hours and then checked by moderator, pls do understand that I did not change my mind.

And pls do explain why the detail picture of "C" dragon is not from the museum piece and it show "disc" grinding.





Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: Bill Mon, Feb 15, 2010

Story of how the No. 1 C dragon was found:

http://big5.cctv.com/gate/big5/www.cctv.com/program/tsfx/topic/geography/C13297/20050104/100508.shtml

Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: kk Tue, Feb 16, 2010

All above HS jades are from the following museums

Liaoning provincial museum (large number of Hongshan sites are in this province)
Ningjing museum (Hongshan exhibition)
Shenzheng museum (National Treasure exhibition)
National palace museum in Taibei
One pig dragon is from Freer Gallery in US.

This is a rare opportunity to see close-up pictures of jade material, nature surface wear and patina, tool marks and artistic style …. I will show one closer up of the C dragon and the back side of the dragon tail has a museum serial number. I don’t think you will see this view often. For Anita and Robert who still have question about their authenticity, you may continuous to believe in the spitfire monster or whatever you like. I never plan to fill up every single cup, empty or not. It is your job to do the rest of the research. I share with some of the rarest pictures from the museums but I can’t teach you to see.

The last two pictures are posters in the Shenzhen museum exhibition which show the C dragon and one of the above pig dragons. Bill, some of answers to your question are on it, Can you be kind enough to translation them for the rest of forum members who can’t read Chinese. I am sure you will do a much better job than I do as you can see my English is terrible. Thanks.

Lee, Thank you, I am not a museum curator, I am simply just a collector who like to help out a little. Life will be very boring if every single piece of jade is faked as you can see in the past two years after Mr. Anthony Lee left.

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Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: Anita Mui Tue, Feb 16, 2010

That tiger was copied from Hongshan bone pendant from Chinese private collection fake Hongshan artifact book, this book comes with price tags shown at the last chapter.

This book was only published to drive sale of Hongshan FAKE.

Have fun
Anita






Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: Anita Mui Wed, Feb 17, 2010

A pile of stuffs.







Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: kk Mon, Feb 22, 2010

The HS jades tiger and all above jades shown with the hand are from the collection of Liaoning Provincial Museum. They probably have one of the biggest excavated HS jades collection.


Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: Anita Mui Wed, Feb 24, 2010

That tiger is not from are not from Liaoning Provincial Museum.

Subject:Re: to KK
Posted By: pipane Sat, Feb 27, 2010

Hello there,

KK, that's the second post from you that I comment.

I am a big fan of HS jade (collector and antique dealer in Beijing antique city)

Very nice stuff!!!

I guess you're not a novice collector...

I have some concern about the hole in your axe (usualy bigger or without hole) and your hoof (that I wish I could inspect myself because it looks really nice)...but I guess that if you have such jade in hands you know what you're doing.

Special 'big up' for the yellow jade pig dragon, and the yellow jade wing (and the comb of course)...good...

I posted one similar 'wing-shape' ornement once on this website...I'll look for the link...

By the way, I am now looking for good quality jade, Hongshan Culture beads, small size: appx 1 cm diameter or so...? (see picture)

I invite you to have a look at my website...there's some of my best HS jades there. Feel free to send me your [email protected]

http://www.pipane.com/index.php?rubric=3&page=1&filter=period&filterId=19

Best regards,

Pipane

URL Title :Pipane Asian Art Gallery


Subject:Re: to KK
Posted By: kk Mon, Mar 01, 2010

Pipane,
Thanks, You are dealer at Beijing antique city? I went there many years ago. Maybe we met? You are sure have some interesting pieces in your website. I really can't said I am a big fan in HS jade; and the chance to find any HS piece outside China is very small. I am more interesting in White jade cravings from Ming/Qing dyn.

Regarding the axe (purple paper background), some HS axes have holes but more don't. Please see pictures from Nanjing museum's Hongshan exhibition. Perhaps you already saw this exbition and it is not far from Beijing.

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Subject:Re: to KK
Posted By: kk Mon, Mar 01, 2010

Anita,
views from both side of the famous C dragon. All the close ups from the same piece. Hope this help.

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Subject:Re: to KK
Posted By: kk Mon, Mar 01, 2010

"This group is from National Palace Museum in Taiwan. Real or not??? Also please see the irregular openings, they are not perfect circle cut by the round drilling. Any idea how they were made?"


NO one answer the above question, here is the answer from National Palace Museum in Taiwan.


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Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: kk Tue, Feb 16, 2010

Anita said “The details pictures of "C" dragon you showed are from different piece, not from that excavated one.” "Upper and lower incised line show stitches from small bronze disc grinding which have NEVER been found on hongshan jade"

Here is the opposite side of the famous C dragon, shows with the Museum serial number, the four detailed pictures are taking from this side. And if you take a closer look, this serial number can be seen in the picture from the other side too.

Denial can't save your spitfire monster collection, I am sorry for you.



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Subject:Re: tool marks on antique jades #3
Posted By: pipane Fri, Jul 26, 2019

and to explain a little bit further this : few people know that in certain conditions depending of the soil, the climate and other factors ancient tomb have the tendency to to come to the soil surface (by soil erosion) hence if it is forbidden to dig in many part of Mongolia, Manchuria and other places in northern china where the climate is very dry locals find HS jade just by walking in the countryside ! These HS jade most of them small pieces are legally traded in China. especially after summer heavy rains or winter windy periods, one can easily find small tools, arrow heads, beads and larger interesting genuine HS jade. It has been the case even before HS culture has been identified has a specific neolithic period Culture covering this aera.

here attached pictures to illustrate !








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