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Subject:Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Judy Sun, Jan 31, 2010 IP: 69.244.35.148

I have an 8" in diameter plate that I am trying to date. Any help is most appreciated.

Thanks.




Link :Picture


Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: PyroManiac Sun, Jan 31, 2010

Most likely 19th century. Some people might argue an earlier date of late 18th century of which there are similar examples but examining the footrim I believe it mid 19th century.

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Cal Sun, Jan 31, 2010

Is fake mark by one who not know how to make the brush strokes.

Ming Chenghua one of the most commonly applied marks on late 19th and 20th century products.

Some with the fake mark do have their own merit. If you want estimations qualities of dish or plate, do present photos.

Good luck,
Cal

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Arjan Mon, Feb 01, 2010

Hello Judy,

I don't think there is much change this plate (with this four character mark) could be of the period. Those pig bristle holes could indicate a Kangxi dating but I think we need more pictures. (seen the way the characters are written I'm even thinking about a possible Japanese origin).

Regards,
Arjan

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Judy Tue, Feb 02, 2010

I have a link to front of the plate and will attach the photo now. Please let me know what other photos you need to help identify this. Thanks.



Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Cal Tue, Feb 02, 2010

Pretty glaze color, looks quite new. Possibly made in Vietnam in sort of Chinese style?

Good luck,
Cal

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Kasem Woramahakun Wed, Feb 03, 2010

It is most likely to be of the Mid 19th Century, circa DAOGUANG period(1821-1850). The Marking is not matching the age of the plate.

Regards

Kasem

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Helen Yin Mon, Feb 01, 2010

The 4 Chinese character is “cheng hua nian zhi”. It means the plate was made in Ming dynasty about 500 years ago.

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: kk Wed, Feb 03, 2010

IMHO, this is a Mid Qing plate(Qianlong -Jiaqing) It was painted in style of this period. and the “cheng hua nian zhi” mark is common for this type of plate.

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Judy Wed, Feb 03, 2010

I know the plate was brought back from China after the end of WWII. Is there any way to clearly identify the age? Thanks.

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Emiko Thu, Feb 04, 2010

Hi to all,
The plate in the picture here is Imari plate from Japan, also known as Shida-yaki Imari, near Arita,during the late Edo period,1780 -1850. The spurious mark reads, Seika-nen-sei in Japanese.
Best Regards,
Emiko

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Arjan Thu, Feb 04, 2010

Hi all,

I couldn't "find consensus with myself" about this piece. So I spend some time to find something simular. This is what I could find (Gotheborg). Not the exactly the same but it comes close I think (shape, color, thick paste, 4 character Chenghua mark). It’s dated early to mid 20th century.

Regards,

Arjan




Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Fri, Feb 05, 2010

Hi Judy,
This plate is Chinese, the mark is Chenghua (1465 to 1487) from the Ming dynasty, and in my opinion it dates to the Daoguang reign (second quarter of the 19th century).

To me this is apparent from the glassy, pitted foot rim and the "potato eye" appearance of the glaze underneath. It is not entirely clear from the photo, but the light celadon coloured glaze on the face further reinforces such a dating.

It must be very confusing to have such a range of uneducated guesses; Vietnamese, Japanese, Japanese Imari, Ming dynasty, Kangxi, Qianlong/Jiaqing etc

Regards
Tony

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Emiko Sat, Feb 06, 2010

Hi Tony,
I guess you are right,my mistake. There are so many of this type of scenery in Japanese Imari about the same period. Since Japanese were alway eager to copy the Chinese originals,during politically unsettled periods in China, Japanese porcelain makers had more orders from oversea buyers to replace Chinese products. One thing I am learning more,is that there are so much illegal trades between China,Taiwan and Japan,15th - 19th century. There are so much unknown mystery. That makes us always wonder?????
Thank you for sharing your thought.
Best Regards,
Un-educated but still eager to learn,
Emiko

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Judy Sat, Feb 06, 2010

Yes, I am surprised at the range of answers - I had almost given up on this. Thanks for your time and response.

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Anthony J Allen Sat, Feb 06, 2010

Hi Emiko,
It needs to be remembered that a reign mark by itself is seldom a guarantee an item is made during the period of the reign.

I have a few comments to add about Imari, Japanese or Chinese and Chenghua marks.

The Japanese Imari was extremely popular in 17th century Europe, and from the 1690's was copied by the Chinese; porcelain that today we call Chinese Imari. The popularity of Chinese Imari largely died out by the 1760's and with the exception of a slight resurgence of interest by the South East Asian nonya ware buyers circa 1840, was not produced again.

Japanese Imari on the other hand continued to be popular right through the Meiji period (1868 to 1912) and beyond, and is now faithfully copied by the Chinese artists of today.

Spurious reign marks can be found on Japanese Imari, mainly Ming Chenghua marks, but the Japanese style of calligraphy is different, easily recognisable to a trained eye.

It is also worth mentioning that the use by Chinese potters of the Chenghua reign mark largely ceased after circa 1900, being replaced by Qing dynasty Kangxi, Qianlong and Yongzheng marks.

I trust these comments are helpful. Please remember though, with virtually every rule in Chinese porcelain, there will be an exception.

Regards
Tony

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Arjan Sat, Feb 06, 2010

Hi Judy and all,

I often avoid deeper discussions because my Englisch isn't that good and this sometimes gives misunderstandings. Your remark that you are surprised at the range of answers, the post of Tony and the reaction of Emiko triggered me to react.
I know who Tony is and what he has done and he has decades of experience and I have respect for his knowledge and opinions. Others on this site ,like myself, are less educated and use the site to help others with suggestions and learn from their (own) mistakes.
In this case this was a hard one for me (just speaking for myself now). The mark is of course the last thing to look at because it only indicates that it is not made before the mentioned period. After you posted the front I had the same feeling as Cal; that it looked rather new. Emiko's suggested Japanese Shida. I knew it wasn't Shida but thats only because when I stretch my arm above my desk I can take an example and I think when you have one (in hand) you reconise it easely. But ... I can understand that Emiko was thinking about a Japanese origin.
If Tony says it's Daoguang I like to believe him because of his knowledge but I still don't have the " Oh yes, of course" feeling. Why? .... I don't see it as typical for the period. (caused by my lack of experience of course). I know they made celedon pieces.... but the ones I've seen often had polychrome decorations and with a white base. I also know that they made ware with a heavy tinted glaze... but often more grey/blue and not green. Also the decoration didn't gave me (and mayby others) a clue to date the piece to the given period. Writing this I hope that I can explain why this was a hard one to pinpoint for me and maybe others and I hope you don't blame anyone for "wrong" suggestions.

Regards,

Arjan

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: kk Sat, Feb 06, 2010

Judy, Anthony and other

IMHO, this is a fairly common plate in light celadon graze over underglaze blue painting. I actually have a similar one somewhere. This type of plate is often thickly potted and has a nice smooth foot rim as the above example. They are often date as Mid Qing Dynasty in books and auctions, and a lot of them has 4 Chinese character is “cheng hua nian zhi” mark. They are very much out of style after the 1839 first opium war. Most collector see Mid Qing period is from Qinglong to first opium war, and the general believe is the quality of Chinese porcelain decline began at the late Qianlong period. Anthony, we may not always agree on other piece but we are not far apart this time. The reason I date this a little earlier than you is the painting quality was still very good and I expect the lower quality in painting for the Douguang piece.. Here is a picture of a celadon glaze w/ blue under glaze plate with the same mark and date as Mid Qing from a Chinese Book. I believed this is a little later that Judy’s example base on the painting quality. It is more likely a Jiaqing/Douguang piece.

Here is a link to a lot of mid Qing celadon w/blue under glaze painting porcelain from a Poly auction house, the second biggest Auction house in China.

http://www.polypm.com.cn/search.php?name=%C7%E0%C7%E0

This is my last response to this plate, anyone may do more Google search, the Chinese name is “ 豆清人物山水盘” (light celadon glaze with underglaze blue landscape plate, just copy and paste on the search engine)

1736-1795 Qianlong
1795-1820 Jiaqing
1820-1850 Douguang, first opium war 1839.



Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Judy Sun, Feb 07, 2010

I appreciate everyone's input and thank you for the information about this plate. Judy

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: kk Sun, Feb 07, 2010



Ops, I forgot the pictures.
Here is a pictures of a celadon glaze w/ blue under glaze plate with the same mark and dated as Mid Qing from a Chinese Book. I believed this is a little later that Judy’s example base on the painting style and quality. It is more likely a Jiaqing/Douguang piece.







Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Pillow
Posted By: JK Tue, Jan 09, 2018

Help! Ive had ten differing opinions on this pillow. Please see link.

URL Title :Porcelain Pillow


Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Pillow
Posted By: Bill H Wed, Jan 10, 2018

No older than late 20th century, in my opinion. Not opinion but naked truth is that it is at least partly transfer decorated., so isn't Qing, much less Ming ware.

Best regards,

Bill H.

Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Pillow
Posted By: Kk Wed, Jan 10, 2018

How can you tell?


Subject:Re: Help to Identify Age of Chenghua Nian Zhi Plate
Posted By: Blanche Wed, Apr 18, 2018

Was this ever resolved? I found a VERY similar pc boxed in my parent's cellar last week & love to know honest insights


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