Asian Arts | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries | Message Board | Departments

I was flabbergasted by a supposed-to-be jade expert and jade book writer’s recent comment in this forum that “nephrite was never discovered in Taiwan”

After I had posted numerous references in showing that there was (and is) indeed nephrite mines in Taiwan, he still refused to accept such a fact.

(*For more info, refer to: http://asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=35652#35740)

The he went on a tantrum in continuing to proclaim the following statements:”

“I want to bring to your attention that the British Columbia "jade" is actually hydrogrossular and not nephrite. Hydroglossular has a similar Moh's scale hardness as nephrite and a specific gravity of 3.5 that is much higher than nephrite and even higher than jadeite.”

“New Zealand Maori jade is actually not nephrite but Tangiwaite, has a hardness of 5 on Moh's scale and a specific gravity of 2.6.”

“The so-called "California jade" was discovered in Northern California coast by divers near the shore at a depth of 30-100 feet. This hardstone is called Vesuvianite and is not nephrite.”

He should just admit that he was wrong about there was no nephrite jade without making the above statements.

I have been posting so much postings in thei forum regarding BC nephrite jade (Canada) I am not going to repeat myself here, readers who are interesting can just search with BC jade or under Bill in this forum to find them.

Now another member already responded to the expert that New Zealand Maori jade is actually not nephrite, please see
http://asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=35652#35791

and I quite enjoyed his question to the jade expert:

“I do not know where you sourced your information for your books on jade, weapons and latterly netsuke, but they are in my opinion also largely incorrect and exceptionally misleading.”

You see, I have been living in the U.S.A. for over 30 years and had been recently diligently in acquiring nephrite jade rocks, pebbles, slabs, roughes, etc. from all over the world especially from California. I know for sure the BIG SUR jade from California are nephrite jade because I have acuqired quite a few of them. Some quality samples are do dark green that they were being called “elephant blue”. They all passed the hardness and S.G. tests. Therefore to hear the expert to declare that: “California jade is not nephrite” truly shocks me.

Everybody who are interested in nephrite jade know indeed there are nephrite jade found in BIG SUR (beach) in California for a long time. Recently there are botryoidal jade (nephrite) finds finds that are astounding the jade and mineral world.

I would post the following links here for your enjoyment with the map of BIG SUR and some sample of BIG SUR nephrite jade below.

Bill



California nephrite jade:

http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2007/1/5/helicopter-prospecting-for-jade.html
(Helicopter prospecting for jade in California)

http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2005/11/1/big-sur-jade-festival-2005.html
(shows some beautiful looking BIG SUR jade)

http://www.bigsurjadeco.com/festival.html
(Big Sur jade festival)

http://www.wikihow.com/Find-Jade-in-Big-Sur
http://www.ehow.com/how_2241764_find-jade-big-sur.html
(How to find jade in Big Sur.)

http://www.friendsofjade.org/group-discussion/post/187376
(Mining jade in Big Sur)

http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.cgi?image=1626&mode=sequential&flags=0
(Aerial photos of Jade Cove at Big Sur where you can dive for jades)

Mineral data:
http://www.mindat.org/loc-25085.html

Bill
In the eyes of a BC Jade collector, California Jade , generally speaking, is not necessarily the nicest material, but it is Jade (Nephrite)! Here in BC we have several areas where some good Jade is found, and some is found in a former asbestos mine (Cassiar Asbestos). I have tested many samples from different locations in BC, and the SG was always right on the dot. One exception, the BC mutton fat Jade is Feldspar (I tested those samples as well) Now, the New Zealand greenstone is not only Jade, but many times imported from Russia and/or BC. Many Jade Tikis were made in Idar Oberstein, Germany, then Taiwan started the production of Tikis until China took over. Jade from Taiwan looks almost similar to BC Jade, and so does some of the Alaska Jade.
Hope this helps.
Ernest

Hi, Ernest:

You genuinely puzzled me. Had I unintentionally hinted that California nephrite jade was the nicest material? If that is the case, I apologize for misleading you because that is simply not the intention of my thread.

You see, a jade expert/jade book write had made some interesting statements in that (1) There were no nephrite jades ever being discovered in Taiwan; (2) BC (Canada) jade is not nephrite; (3) California jade is not nephrite; (4) New Zealand Maori jade is not nephrite. Therefore, this is the only reason for me to post this thread to refute him by showing that California jade is indeed a type of nephrite jades.

I had recently bought a few BC jade carvings and slabs and indeed they were very beautiful and better looking than the California jades I had. However, that does not mean there may not be some California jade out there that are more superior than some of the BC nephrite jade.

I actually believe out of all the nephrite jades, the XinJiang Hetian nephrite jade may be the best in quality and the nicest.

Russian nephrite jade and the Alaska polar jade may be the next nicest one and with BC nephrite jade not too far behind. I have not seen enough Taiwan jade to make a fair comparison and I believe some top-quality one may be as good as any nephrite jade.

Interestingly, the Chinese people never did quite catch on with the BC jade may be until recently. Same applies to Taiwan jade. I have no idea what happened to all these genuine Wyoming nephrite especially the real black nephrite jade. For that matter, I have no idea what they use Australian black nephrite jade for although I saw some very expensive black Australian jade ornaments for sales on internet but I have never seen any of them in the U.S.

The only comment from your messages that truly puzzles me is:

"Now, the New Zealand greenstone is not only Jade, but many times imported from Russia and/or BC. "

Would you please clarify what exactly you meant by that? Are you saying the New Zealand Maori nephrite jade is not from New Zealand or?

Thanks for your comments and it would be nice if you would be kind enough to post some jade carvings or samples of Taiwan, BC jade, Alaska jade, Russian jade here for us to compare.

Bill

There is pure black nephrite in BC, but only very small amounts.

New Zealand Maori nephrite jade is not from New Zealand or? = yes, they have their own Jade, but the Tikis have been made from foreign Jade in foreign countries since app 1960. The very beautiful green stone is usually from Russia.
Wyoming Jade has disappeared. I visited Wyoming about 5 years ago to get some samples, and was told that nothing has been available for a long time, as they had only one find. Yet they sold Wyoming jade which was in reality BC Jade! The Wyoming emerald green Jade is extremely rare. The other colors were of no great interest, they had a faded look ( I am talking about 30 years ago).
Ernest

Hi, Ernest:

Thanks for your opinions and I believe it surely comes from your experience in collecting all different jade samples. Since I really do not know too much about New Zealand jade, therefore, I would not know whether what you said would be correct or not and can only kow-tow to your experience and the contribution of other collectors who may know more about NZ jade. It is true though many of these NZ tikis I have seen for sale lately material of which did all look like BC jade or Russian jade.

It was rumored that there was indeed genuine black nephrite jade in Wyoming but the whole supply was bought by a Chinese guy from Taiwan in the 70s but I have no idea of the whereabout of all these Wyoming black nephrite jade. However, some of them (black jade-old stocks) could still be purchased in the U.S. but they would not come cheap. Most of the black Wyoming jade for sales on eBay are all fakes and are not even nephrite jade. I could only obtain a few very small genuine samples myself. Many of so called Wyoming jade are not totally black but rather very dark green and they are vastly different than BC nephrite jade. I cannot say whether your statement: " Wyoming jade which was in reality BC Jade!" is correct or not because I have not seen that many Wyoming jade that look like BC jade are for sales. I am not sure BC jade is really cheaper than Wyoming jade. I did obtain a piece of genuine Wyoming nephrite jade rock (dark green, almost black) and it looks nothing like BC nephrite jade. It would be nice if you would post pictures of some of the Wyoming jades you may have (the one you got a while ago).

Thanks.

Bill

>>Wyoming jade which was in reality BC Jade!"<<
Sorry about that one, what I wanted to say is: The few carvings I saw in the shops (in Wyoming) were made from BC jade. When I pointed that out to the dealers, they confessed that they had no clue
Ernest

http://www.artsofasianet.com/back_issues/back_issue.php?action=add_article&article_code_shop=1458

"WORLD JADE RESOURCES" FRED WARD p. 68

Arts of Asia Magazine, 1999 Jan/Feb issue.

Fred Ward is an authority in jade.

http://www.californiajade.com/

"We are California’s premier jade hunting family. You can be 100% confident when you buy from us. We are lucky to harvest by helicopter a
small amount of this extremely rare jade every year. Botryoidal jade is known as the “Rarest of the rare jades” We travel to the remote wilderness and choose the very best pieces to helicopter back with. Then only the “Best of the Best” are made into the treasures we sell. Our
shop is off the grid and uses passive solar and biodiesel as the only energy sources. Our trucks also run on this vegetable fuel exclusively.

We cause no environmental harm in our gathering. Transporting and cutting are done with as little impact on the environment as possible.
This jade has been featured in Arts of Asia magazine Jan./Feb 1999. It has also been in Lapidary Journal and other publications. Famous geologists and museum curators have visited the area to study this rare jade and the area hosting it. Do a web search for Botryoidal jade or riverblossomjade or california jade to learn more. See the fantastic
Arts of Asia article for great details."

http://www.riverblossomjade.com/Masterpieces.html
http://www.riverblossomjade.com/index.html

(*Note: I have no affiliations with any of the above companies but it is interesting to look at their links to see how BIG SUR jade and California botryoidal jade should look like.)

http://www.bwsmigel.info/GEOL.115.ESSAYS/Gemology.Nephrite.html

"The USA produces three notable types of nephrite: black with magnetite inclusions, and "Vonsen Blue" jade, both from California, and the green to black material from Wyoming."

(*I have also heard that there are nephrite jade in Washington state around Seattle. There are know nephrite jades found in Alaska and they are very beautiful and sought after.)

http://www.cst.cmich.edu/users/dietr1rv/nephrite.htm

"Blue jade (Pacific blue jade, Vonsen blue jade) - names for a nephrite from the Vonsen Ranch in Marin County, California (Chesterman, 1951)."

"Mint in Snow - another name -- see Blossom jade -- given in the marketplace to nephrite jade apparently derived from boulders recovered from places such as Jade Cove on the Pacific coast south of Monterey, California (Ward, 1999)."

http://www.mindat.org/loc-87413.html

Enjoy.

Bill

Bill,
Maybe you should learn from this?

Just because something is written in a book or on a web-site does not necessarily mean the information is correct.

The author you refer to is a case in point. But there are numerous other examples of errors, incompetence or fraud, especially in the last decade.

One hears little today of the two American laboratories who claimed they could validate ancient bronzes by microscopic inspection, or Chinese jades which was their second subject.

The proponents of optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) have similarly gone to ground, as have the majority of laboratories who claimed proficiency in thermoluminescence (TL) testing, their incorrect datings buried in haste without further argument. Heaven help their clients who relied on their expertise to validate the authenticity of their collection.

Bill, please take your repetitious posts of web-sites and post them somewhere else where it doesn't matter. Or research their data before you do so, instead of concluding them with your standard out, "I may be wrong".

Regards
Tony

Tony:

Would you please write in simple English because I read your message twice and still have no idea in you are trying to say.

This thread is about California nephrite jade but I do not see you said anything even remotely related to it.

Of course not all books could be trusted or the info posted on them would be reliable and that would include those books written by you. The recent example shows just because one might have written a few books that does not necessarily mean him/her would be an expert.

Which author did you refer to? Are you in agreement with me or? Did I say he was competent?

The statement about TL testing seems to be self-serving and has nothing to do with this thread. May be you should poste them somewhere else or better yet post a new thread yourself and clearly state what exactly you want to say instead of posting a puzzle here to confuse all of us.

Some times, if you do not have anything good or wise to say, may be it is better not to say them. It seems to me that it is quite disturbing that you seem to enjoy reading every single one of my posts because you always went through the troubles in posting interesting responses on them and yet you told me,

"post them somewhere else where it doesn't matter".

Since this is my thread I surely can post anything I deem fit. Now, if you do own this forum or in your own site, then may be you have the absolute authority in restricting the freedom of speech by banning any messages you do not like.

Therefore, I am sorry to inform you that since your whole message does not seem to make any common senses at all, it would be duly ignored. In this case, I am certain of it.

Bill

Other than the nephrite found in Washington, and that of California, I know of a locality in the state of Oregon.(This has been tested and proven to
be nephrite.) This material is opaque to semi-trans-
lucent, has green flecks, black specks, and cream to
white areas in the best material. I will say that it would certainly be nice to have a helicopter to
retrieve this material.
Michael

Two BIG SUR nephrite jade pieces that were currently listed by the famous Sam Bernstein, and are modern art works created by Don Wobber:

http://www.bernsteinjadeart.com/1826.html

http://www.bernsteinjadeart.com/3468.html

Enjoy.

Bill

(Credit: Anita)

Bill,
The point you don't seem able to absorb or comprehend is that your unresearched posts of a myriad of web-sites does not mean that the information contained therein is correct.

Nor does the fact that a person is deemed an expert in their field, necessarily mean that every statement made by them is correct. Some will be opinion or conjecture.

This particularly applies to jade.

Got it?

Regards
Tony

Tony:

Are your previous message referreing to yourself? since just like me, you are not really any more an expert in jade than me?

You see the problem with most of these opinions being posted in this fourm, is that without any credible and reliable references or supports, they are purely educated (or uneducated) guesses and personal opinions at best. Very often, when one attempts to play "expert" based mainly on his personal opinions will end up with eggs all over his/her face. I believe that should be enough to humble all of us in not believing we would be the ultimate expert in anything no matter how many books we might have written and in not being arrogant enough to look down upon other members or collectors.

Even an expert in ceramic such as you, in one of your recently posted messages you said that you had difficulty in googling one of the Chinese source in ceramic simply because you did not know how to search them in Chinese. Therefore if you assume because you cannot find such references in English therefore such reference do not exist then you will surely miss a lot.

Therefore, I would never laugh at anybody's opinions regarding jade no matter how ridiculous it may sound unless they are trying to play "teachers" instead of sharing with others as equals. Are you trying to be my teacher or you are just trying to share with me as an equal? If it is the latter, I would truly appreciate your effort. Thank you.

B

Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries | Message Board | Departments