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Subject:Huanghuali or not
Posted By: KK Tue, Jan 15, 2008 IP: 76.229.131.12

I am interesting to purchase this Fangdeng. It is made in Hongkong during the republic period. I wonder if it is Huahuali? if not what kind of wood it is. This doesn't look like huali to me.







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Judy Wed, Jan 16, 2008

I am afraid this is not Huanghuali.


Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: pipane Wed, Jan 16, 2008

Doesn't seems so, looks softer to me.

Plz compare...(Qing dynasty Huanghuali square table)


Regards,

Pipane




Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Wed, Jan 16, 2008

Judy, Pipane,
Thanks You for your opinion. Can you tell me what kind of wood this is? I post a few more pictures. ( I only post three each time)
I have a few pieces of early huanghuali. but I found this piece is hard to be certain. I love to find out what this realy is.
Thanks again!







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Wed, Jan 16, 2008

Close up pics look Huanghuali with the brown grain pattern. Without that it would look light brown hongmu. However may be not the ghost face burl type pattern that some people prefer. Design actually looks late republic with no exposed joints. Is there made in Hong Kong paper stickers on the back? Also roman numerals? serial number indented on the wood? If there is probably 1950s. Is there chinese character written in white chalk or black ink on the wood components? I saw one ming style republic piece for sell in Beijing for 7000 yuan.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Thu, Jan 17, 2008

Larry
Yes, you are right about the HK stamp and roman number on the underside. Together with the wide gap on the top, it is easy to date this piece to late republic -50s. This piece is not the more typical huanghuali with ghost face and I never handle the light brown Hongmu myself so I was hesitate to buy it.

For 7000 yuan in Beijing, is it a fangdeng or chair or something else?

Thanks
KK

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Thu, Jan 17, 2008

The light brown Hongmu can be hard to tell from huanghuali as they are both the rosewood family and have close grains and both are very dense and heavy. I always look for presence of brown grain lines and of cause ghost faces to tell the difference. Apparently it is very hard to tell especially when there is no more traces of pungent smell after so many years. Ingeneral the later period there wasn't much huanghuali left only old furniture that are recycled. The dark variety of hongmu can be hard to tell from Zitan. The piece I saw was a side table with the ruyi appron. I saw it 1 year ago at Beijing hotel and I ask the old man, he also sells jade and he says it was 7000 yuan, but republic.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Fri, Jan 18, 2008

Larry,

Is the light brown Honghu is teh same speices as the darker hongma? Do they have the same grain /pattern but just different in colors?

Republic era Huanghuali Half (side) table for 7000 yuan, it seems so low.

This fangdeng do have the fragrant smell, I am likely to purchase it.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Fri, Jan 18, 2008

Apparently they arte the sam species just from different part of the tree trunk. I think the darker Hongmu is from the heart wood and the lighter from the sap wood something like that. Anyway if I have time I take you some pics today.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Fri, Jan 18, 2008

Hai enclose some photos of different woods. 1)light brown hongmu 2)dark hongmu with light hongmu sap wood 3)huali







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Fri, Jan 18, 2008

other woods easily confuse with huali 1) walnut or hetaomu 2) zitan 3)anyone know what this wood is?







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Fri, Jan 18, 2008

1)light brown hongmu 2)dark fibrous grain hongmu 3) Zitan burl







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Tue, Jan 22, 2008

Dear Larry,

I am not sure about your third picture as being Ji-Tan. But, the second picture appears to be antique Suen-Ji that is a lot more valuable than Hongmu(Red Wood/Huali).

Randy Li

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Côme Thu, Aug 03, 2017

I'll be curious to know what you, knowledgeable people would reckon that Kang table's wood is?

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Côme Fri, Aug 04, 2017

Problem with picture size, sorry.
Would you be able to tell the nature of that wood?



Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Soehandi Sat, Jan 19, 2008

Nice furniture. It looks more like southern elm than huanghuali/huali. The wood grain of southern elm is more regular, while huanghuali wood grain has vertical and horizontal grain and in a whole appearance really like a landscape. This vertical and horizontal grain that make huanghuali so hard.

Here I uploaded typical southern elm, northern elm and huanghuali wood grain from Christies wood glossary for comparison.

I also have a set of chinese altar tables. A collector friend of mine posted this altar to Gotheborg discussion board several years ago and there were two opinions come concerning the age. First group said as late 18 century and the second group said as late 19 century. The wood said as beechwood (?)

Regards
Soehandi





Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Tue, Jan 22, 2008

Larry, Great pictures! Thank You very much.

I bought the fangdeng. I am still not 100% convinved it is Huanghuali, but it is a bigger size and price is right.

This piece has a handsome shimmery effect usually found on Huanghuali but not on Hongmu. I took one picture w/ flash light and one w/o. The last picture shows a closeup of one leg. You can see the wood grain are quite different from the top and side view. The side view looks like Huanghuali but the top view doesn't.

Soehandi, Southern elm? You go so far away; I am not sure what to say.

Thanks again!







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Tue, Jan 22, 2008

Dear All,

The table appears to be Huali 花梨 to me. But, the wood grain on the right leg is a little questionable, and it could have been restored/repaired with other wood.

Hongmu(Red Wood)紅木is actually Huali 花梨 but is stained in reddish brown. It is close to Suen-Ji 酸枝 and have been being sold as Suen-Ji 酸枝 with less "Cow-Hairs" 牛毛紋 and being softer.

Jitan 紫檀's base color is from light puple to dark purple(to almost black), while Suen-ji 酸枝's base color are light. Traditionally the way to test Jitan 紫檀 is to rob a wet towel against the wood and check for any dark stain. If no stain, the wood is naturally dark. But, some people might have mistakenly stained their Jitan too, therefore they implicated the identification process. I have seen some people kept using detergent to wash their Suen-Ji 酸枝 furniture. Over the years, their Suen-Ji 酸枝 furniture turned into light and whiten color wood.

Randy Li

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Wed, Jan 23, 2008

Hi Randy,

Suanzhi is Hongmu. It calls Suanzhi in the Southern China and Hongmu in the North, now often call Lao Hongmu in China. They call hongmu in most major auction houses here in US.
This is a meditation fangdeng (stool), not a table; there is no corner table or coffee table in traditional Chinese house.

There can be quite a lot of variation both in the Huanghuali or Hongmu groups. Which make identification difficult even I have many Huanghuali and hongmu furniture. I agree with Larry that. Both light brown Hongmu and some huali can be easy to confuse with Huanghuali. but I feel pretty comfortable to rule out Huali at this time because of the wood grain are clearly different as you can see in the close-ups.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Wed, Jan 23, 2008

Dear KK,

Suen-Ji is a lot more harder and a lot more expensive. Huali is softer and cheaper and is usually stained and sold as Hongmu. The modern day Hongmu are actually stained Huali(they don't have as much cow-hair). Traditional Suen-Ji were stained to dark black that mimmicked Ji-Tan.

Traditional Chinese furniture contains many high stands(usually two deckers) that served as tea stands in between every two chairs.

I did not realize the height of the table/stand. I thought it was the center table of a altar. This item is usually not used as a seat. Most family would put decorative items on top and use it as a stand.

Chairs for meditation? I have seen them as wide seats with high back.

Randy Li

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Wed, Jan 23, 2008

Dear Randy, the detergent test is a good one to tell Zitan from Hongmu.I notice that if you keep washing your Hongmu table top with deterget the dark color goes away and become almost light brown and when you apply linseed oil or furniture polish the dark color returns. Also old hongmu table tops are prone to splitting and they tend to shrink more than huali or zitan. Zitan have better depth grain pattern and almost like lion hair grain pattern and appears purplish red from a distant but when you apply bright light is only can you see the beautiful grains. regards, Larry

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Wed, Jan 23, 2008

Dear Larry,

There was this wonton noodle shop "Wai-Yi"唯二麵家 in Macau(they probably are still around). I watched these people cleaning their Suen-Ji furniture with detergent to the point that they all turned white(light yellowish brown)because they used Suen-Ji furniture for the shop. That was my favorite noodle house. My dad always joked about that their Suen-Ji furniture turning white.

Suen-Ji furniture needs to be maintained almost every year because they expand and shrink during different humidity . They need to be adjusted, disassembled, reattached, glued back, and stained.

Rubbing a piece of dry white paper against the Ji-Tan, and the color can be determined.

Randy Li

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Thu, Jan 24, 2008

Hi KK and Randy, I just bought this antique display cabinet at auction for around US$350, three days ago. It is a reddy black looking Hongmu. However unfortunately the upper rack is missing. I suspect it is late 19th century. What is your opinion? By the way KK your Fangdeng looks Huanghuali after you polish it. I suspect this one was made from recycled old furniture, from the square patch on the corner- looks like a joint that was covered. That was common in the early 1900's. I think I read some where in a book about Chinese furniture publish by the British museum. Regards, Larry







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Thu, Jan 24, 2008

Dear Larry,

You are right that the cabinet is not very old. The missing shelf can be replaced with a glass shelf. It may be even better to remove the rest of the broken shelf and keep it the way it is. I still have a phone number for a wood master and Chinese antique furniture store owner in Macau who used to do some work for my dad and I. We can call long distance with pre-paid phone card or skypes very cheap during the right hours to ask for some technical questions for antique wood maintenance and repair. Such as the kind of stain and the upkeeping of the wooden items.

As for KK's Huanghuali's Fangdeng - what exactly is fangdeng in Chinese? Is it like Peking Duck and Chop Shuey pronounced by the Lao Wuis? (=:
The enlongated rectangular joints are of old workmanship. They are called Shun 筍 in the trade. Antique woodwork don't use nail or screw. The antique furnture were put together using Shuns and woodglue.

Randy Li

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Thu, Jan 24, 2008

Good catch Larry, Yes, it is probably made from recycle wood from older piece. You are right: it is common to find reclaimed wood in republic Huanghuali (probably Qing period as well).

OMHO, I think yours is 19th century. Not republic style. Its a great price. I would buy it too.

About a year ago, I also purchased a pair of Fangdengs. I was not sure about wood but knew they are early qing period. The wood again is not the typical huanghuali I know. Of course, I didnt pay the price of Huanghuali, and they turn out to be all original Huanguhuali after I did research later. So I learned to keep an opened mind at all time as life is full of good surprises.

Pics: 17th cent huanghuali fangdeng and close ups. The later replace panel is huanghuali as well. (Note it originally had cane seat)


Cheer!







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Fri, Jan 25, 2008

Dear KK, you are very lucky to buy this pair of stools.They do look early qing and in good condition. They are definitely a variety of rose wood and very likely Huanghuali. It is hard to find things rose wood these days, let along in pairs. Sometimes I would also buy furnitur in less desirable wood like hetaomu(walnut), zaomu (oak) or Zhajing (mulberry) if they are Ming style and in reasonable condition and not lacquered before. I suspect furniture that were not lacquered or painted were made from good quality wood and was intended to display its beautiful grains. It seems to be very much harder to find graceful and simple ming style rosewood furniture- like your stools than complicated southern qing style furniture. Ming style furniture do fetch alot more than qing style furniture at auctions.As with cleaning I usually follow what they do with European furniture which is clean with a wet cloth first if there was mess on it and when dry rub it with linseed oil. Regards, Larry

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Thu, Jan 24, 2008

Hi Randy and KK, with hongmu that have turn white, after cleaning with water there is no need to stain it, just rub colorless linseed oil on it and the color will return. It is a very strange phenomenon, because there was once upon a time I bought a square games table and was told it was huanghuali, because it look rosewood and was light brown in color. I rub it with linseed oil to polish it and it turned black brown in color and look completely not huaghuali. That was when I ask the opinion of another Chinese furniture expert and he told me it was definitely hongmu.Anyway I kept the table and when I clean it with water, it turns light brown and when I aply colorless linseed oil or polish and it turns black. However with the square zitan table when you clean it with water the color doesn't change. Also after more than 200 years there is hardly any shrinkage or cracks. I suspect alot of the Zitan that is in some collection is actually hongmu, because it can be hard to tell until you clean it with water. You can try this test.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Thu, Jan 24, 2008

The staining has been a tradition on Hongmu/Suen-Ji. The furniture in that noodle house was odd in color because they cleaned it with detergent. Over the years, the furniture were stripped off the color. Oil may help restore its original reddish brown a little bit, but all Suen-Ji are to be stained regularly to red or black.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Thu, Jan 24, 2008

Dear Randy,

I can tell you are Cantonese (Southern China) from the terms you used. If you do a quick search on the internet you will see hongmu is Suanzhi in Chinese antique furniture. Nowadays what so call the hongmu furniture is simply means hard wood furniture which including all types of hardwood not just huali. This is a post 1970s marketing idea.

Meditation fangdeng is called "chandeng" . It is not a popular term in US so I go with meditation fangdeng which many Chinese Furniture collectors understand. Chandeng usually are bigger compare to fangdeng.

For comparison , Here is a picture of 1880s fangdeng(stool), The wood is hongmu (also calls suanzhi / lao hongmu)

kk



Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Thu, Jan 24, 2008

Thank you! KK,

Sometimes the American Peking Duck and Chinese Beijing Ya differences do confuse us.

What you showed is a familiar deng 凳. I grew up in a traditional family filled with furniture like that. Most dengs have a round top, and some are mounted with marble.

The term fangdengs might mean 飯凳(stools for dinner). Chandeng might mean 長凳(bench). The fangdengs obviously include the shorter one for use as ottoman and stands.

The meditation seats I know of are big(almost as big as a day bed)with arms and high back.

I have seen that some Antique Suen-Ji furniture in the last hundred-some years were made into Western furniture that include sofa/couch-like furniture.

There are of course some Chinese recliners not influenced by the West.

Randy Li

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Fri, Jan 25, 2008

Larry

I think all darker woods will be lighter and grayer when the natural oils is wash off from it surface. It will return to darker color when oil is replenished. This will happen to huanghuali Huali etc. Zitan is very dense so it is much hard to wash off its natural oil. I suspect denature alcohol or strong solution of simple green may do the same trick.

Randy

Fangdeng is not a bad Chinese pronunciation by "Lao Wuis". Its authentic Mandarin pronunciation and is a standard term use for a Chinese styled stool in the antique trades.

see links for the meditaion stool(chandeng), fangdeng(stool) and hongmu:

http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotCode=iDWWTJF4
http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotCode=wzPQzSvJ
http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotCode=352Z3F9R

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Fri, Jan 25, 2008

Dear KK,

Thank you for the links!

No doubt that the Sotheby's can set some standards using their position that can make the furniture maximize their value, but they are not the major market of antique Chinese wood furniture trade.

Now I know Fangdeng is 方凳(suqare stool). Which is different from the Fangdeng 飯凳(dinner stools) that can be round. It is still a deng 凳, but with distinctive ancient box style. I never like to use that because of the bottom beam that the stool can not be used on unever ground. The stool can be damaged by the sitter's weight if the ground is uneven.

There are some drum-type dengs that have a circular base. They can not be used on uneven ground also.

Randy Li

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Fri, Jan 25, 2008

Larry,
Yeap, It was my lucky day, when I come cross the 17th cent huanghuali fangdengs. It is almost impossible to find any Ming or early Qing huanghuali at a any price nowsdays. Like you, I buy furniture that is later period ,but in ming style and in hardwood. Even those are very difficult to find. All it left in this market is the soft wood (elm etc..) or some Cantonese style hongmu furniture.

At last I will share with this forum a more typical image of huanghuali wood. This is from a 17th cen. seal box. Compare to the close-ups from both fangdeng, there is quite a difference. Huanghuali can vary a lot, which sometime make identification very difficult.

PS , Larry, meditation stool (Chandeng), Chan is the same character as zen in Japanese. Long bench is Changdeng in Chinese. The chair for meditation (with armrest and high back) is Chanyi in Chinese. I teach you mandarin, you have to teach me Taichi now. Do we have a deal? :o)



Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Sun, Jan 27, 2008

Dear KK and Larry,

So the Chandeng is not a deng 凳, but a Yi 椅. Chan-Yi 禪椅. It is better be called as a Chan Zuo 禪座 because the Chan Buddhists meditate on a cushion on a small platform that is as big as a small day bed at low height. They don't sit like regular people when they meditate. They use lotus posture by crossing their legs. Some even have a mostiquito tent hanging on top of their meditation platform. Some high level practitioners don't lie down when they sleep. (=:

How do you call the two seats on both sides of the center table under the altar?

Randy Li

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: kk Mon, Jan 28, 2008

Dear Randy,

Here is how I understand those terms:

Fangdeng(stool) has smaller seat, They can have both square(often 19th cen) or rectangular seat (earlier, 17th cen)

Chandeng 禪凳 (meditation stool) has a bigger seating area to allow both lotus posture OR regular seating posture with both legs down. The seating area of my republic era meditation stool is 24x24 inches which is huge. This is one of the reasons I bought it.
Both Fangdeng and Chandeng have the same height. Both meditation stool and regular stool often mistakes as conner table in US.

Chanyi 禪椅 (meditation chair) is extremely rare. There is one in Shixiang Wangs Connoisseurship of Chinese Furniture book.Chanyi looks very much like a regular Yi( chair) but is wider and lower. Many of the new reproduction Chanyi in HK or Taiwan is some what base on Wangs book. Chanyi is wide enough for seating in lotus posture.

Chan Zuo 禪座 (meditation seat) is not specific type of furniture, it can be Chandeng, Chanyi or Kang(day bed) or just a cushion on a rock if that is what a monk perfer.

Deng 凳 is a simplfy term for fangdeng, chandeng, folding stool or those very low stool in modern day china.

The PS in my last posting is for the Taichi master Randy not Larry, Sorry My mistake.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Larry Tue, Jan 29, 2008

Yep that looks huanghuali. The bronze copper ware also looks original. Some are fitted with paktong ware but yours looks like bronze. Regards, Larry.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Dave Lee Mon, Feb 18, 2008

Sorry none of these pieces are Huanghuali
the first photo of the stool is in a timber much used to imitate/replace Huanghuali I am reluctant to give you its name but suffice to say it has no ghost face figure, it is much courser wood and the gap betwixt the frame and top panel is a dead give away.
as a furniture restorer of Huanghuali/Zitan/hongmu furniture for the last 20 years I have had the pleasure to see many pieces. I enclose a photo from my collection showing a fine figured table, you can see clearly the exceptional figuring on the front frame.



Subject:None of these pieces are Huanghuali?
Posted By: kk Tue, Feb 19, 2008

Dave,
Thanks for your opinion!
None of these pieces are Huanghuali? Can you tell me what kind of wood those three pieces made from. I asked the same question to Randy and Judy earlier but I didn't get a answer from them.
The gap? What is the connection beteen the gap and the wood identification? It is a late republic piece fron HK, I will be surprise if it doesn't has the gap. Don't you think so?

So what kind of wood are they?

the republic fangdeng
17th cen fangdeng pair
17th cen sealbox

Can you show a close up of your table. It's hard to tel l what it is. Thanks.
kk

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Kirkwood Paterson Thu, Mar 29, 2012

You do all seem to be a little more than slightly on the lost side I am sorry to have to point out. Hardly surprising considering there are few definitive & well referenced publications on the subject, and many contradictions among existing papers. It is a status quo I plan to correct, but in the interim: Huanghuali; Hongmu; & Zitan, are in all cases terms that are applied to various Asian subtropical hardwood species, some of which are extinct, and some further in the process of being re-introduced. The following is a brief synopsis of a few more widely referenced authors Linnean classifications of Chinese hardwood taxonomy, extant specie, including in most cases their varying specific gravities., I trust you will find it enlightening.
Best wishes,
Kirk
YINGMU
鹰目
Huanghuali: 黄花梨
Ecke
Ormosia henryi, (d) (e) (nomen conservandum)
Pterocarpus indicus; .52 (f)
(ie: narra//long grain amboyna)
Keates
Pterocarpus indicus,
Ormosia henryi,
Dalbergia latafolia; SG: .75(c)
Lee
Huang T'an,
Leguminosae Dalbergia sissoo sissoo (g) SG 0.7-0.8
Dalbergia rubiginosa (Indian rosewood) (h)
WuBruce
Dalbergia odorifera :
Hongmu:
红木
Ellisworth / Ecke,
Pterocarpus indicus, (note contradiction Keates)
sub Adenanthera pavonina; SG: 0.60 to 0.80 (a)
Dalbergia latafolia. SG .75 (c)
Laohuali:
Leguminosae undetermined
Ecke a later Huanghuali,
Zitan: 紫檀
(b)
Ellisworth
Leguminosae Pterocarpus, including
Ecke / Keates / Lee
P.sanatalius;
P.indicus;
P.dalbergiodes;
Dalbergia benthamii,
Palisander wood
Dr P Gasson
Pterocarpus sanatalius
Jichimu:
Leguminosae undetermined
Ecke
Cassia siamea Lam,
later Ormosia hosiei
Caesalpiniacea.
Keates
Cassia siamea
secondary 'yingmu', (precious timbers)
Ellisworth
boxwood (Buxus sempervirens)
Burls 榴木 'haumu'
Ellisworth
amboina (Lingoum indicium) // (Pterocarpus indicus burl)
Wumu 乌木
Ellisworth
'various species of Diospyros'
shizi // persimmon kaki
The vast balance are 'zamu' 雜木 or miscelaneous / provincial timbers
REFERENCES
(a) ANBAL NIEMBRO ROCAS
Instituto de Ecologa, A.C.
Xalapa, Veracruz, Mxico
(b)IAWA Journal, Vol. 31 (2), 2010: 121138
PCA OF CITES LISTED PTEROCARPUS
SANTALINUS
(LEGUMINOSAE) WOOD
Ian R. MacLachlan1,2 and Peter Gasson 2*
(c)http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-
(d)http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/
identification/hardwoods/east-indian-rosewood/ pii/S0367326X11002644
(e)
(f)http://www.winrock.org/fnrm/factnet/factpub/
FACTSH/P_indicus.html
(g)http://www.winrock.org/fnrm/factnet/factpub/ (h)http://www.illustratedgarden.org/mobot/rareb
FACTSH/D_sissoo.html
ooks/taxa.asp?
relation=QK3498R6817951819V2
(i) Robert Hatfield Ellisworth: Chinese Furniture (j) Gustav Ecke: Chinese domestic furniture

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Tom Lyall Fri, Oct 28, 2016

Hi Kirkwood,
A little late perhaps, but I only just came across your contribution to this thread. Are you still active in Chinese wood taxonomy? That's an area I have a longtime interest in, along with all of the SE Asian woods used in furniture making!
Would be great to hear from you.
Tom

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Kirkwood Paterson Fri, Oct 19, 2012

David,
Wouldn't the width of the frame of your table in relation to the width of the panel suggest a not particularly early origin? You should know this, being a huanghuali restorer... Huanghuali not one species, but a generic term that can be applied to many Asian genera high density hardwoods with an attractive figure. Even Narra, that is a comparitively inexpensive raw material. Your table certainly is huanghuali, but only one of the many species that can be referred to under the nomenclature. This is Dalbergia Sissoo, & albeit huanghuali, is not among the more desirable of the huanghuali species. Ormoisa Heynri has a far more interesting figure. As does Dalbergia barenesis Pierre; & Dalbergia cochinchinensis Pierre, & really if you are to be calling a spade a spade, barenesis & cochinchinensis are far more endemic to China than D sissoo, as the nomen conservorandum would suggest. SURELY! It's really annoying when someone just says something is not this, & then fails to back up their comments with a reasonable explanation as to what it in fact happens to be. How can you know what something so generaic in nature is not, without knowing what it actually is?

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Marcus Tue, Mar 15, 2016

Have a small 15.75 inches x 16.25 inches old Chinese looking stool very much like some seen here. It has Chinese writting on several on the inside bottom pieces. It's yellowish brown on top turning reddish down the sides and darkest red on the bottom. Oh yes, the writting was yellow/white with one character recognized as meaning son; like the numeral three with a horizontal line across it.

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Roger Sun, Apr 01, 2012

So many awesome kick ass responses to this thread! Excellent! So I will throw in my two cents here as well.

Alas, its always so difficult to say from photos as sometimes the flash is a good thing in that it really exposes things clearly - other times it just makes it all the more difficult as it REALLY distorts both color and contrast.

I don't see huanghuali here though. And while I like Randy's suggestion that its "hualimu" however here is another one to throw out at you: camphor (zhangmu). Tons of camphor came out of that region.... In fact, that would be my guess as to what this is.

Also Larry pointed out something very important that I have also seen as well in buying un-restored pieces: "old hongmu table tops are prone to splitting and they tend to shrink more than huali or zitan."

David's mention of the top floating panel is significant as well. That just screams out fairly recent construction to me.

The photo below is of huanghuali picnic box - color and grain can be seen quite clearly...



URL Title :Huanghuali ti he photos


Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Roger Sun, Apr 01, 2012

Here is an old "hongmu" table in un-restored form purchased a year or so ago outside Beijing. (link for closeups below)

Very different color, grain etc from the stools posted above...




URL Title :Beijing Hongmu table


Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: LEE Mon, Apr 02, 2012

Hi Roger, what is the demand and price like for antique Hongmu furniture in HK. In Western countries like Australia, they are relatively cheap. This Hexagonal qing stand was bought for $900AUD. It was from the estate of Cathay Pacific airline pilot that bought it in Hong Kong in the 1960's. I bought this one because it had interesting fish feet.







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: LEE Mon, Apr 02, 2012

more pics







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Alex999 Fri, Apr 13, 2012

Hello all

I really have enjoyed reading your website on huangwhali furniture. I would like to be apart of your site and share what I have found for over 42 years of collecting. This chair is one of a pair. I found in an old store in Hong Kong in 1972. The owner of this store took me up stairs to a roof leaking and birds doing there business all over the furniture and items stored there I spied these two chairs placed upside down and bird dodo all over the bottom of the chairs. There was a tarp around the chairs but the bottoms where exposed to the birds. When he righted the chairs I loved them from the start. I do not know much about wood but love Chinese furniture so I bought them and had the store owner clean them up. I looked for years in books to find chairs like these two but never found then until a year ago when looking on E bay. The book just happened to be opened to the page where the style of chair was visible I was reprized and bought the book. I would like to ask do you feel this chair is of the same age? And is it Huangwhali? I would really like to know. I would also like to post more pics of items I have collected if that is OK with you?

Thank you
Alex999







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: trevor Wed, Apr 09, 2014

Is this Fongdeng still being discussed?

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: H-Chan Sat, Jun 06, 2015

I am thinking of buying this 1950's wardrobe/TV cabinet. The seller says it is made of Huanghuail. I would appreciate it very much if someone can tell me if it is real Huanghuail. Thank you for your help.



Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: DAVID BARBIER Mon, Aug 27, 2018

can some one help me for this table?







Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Kosta Tue, Dec 25, 2018

what is the period of this cabinet ?
Ming or Qing dynasty


Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: david Thu, Feb 07, 2019

i would to sell it but i don t know how much and where

Subject:Re: Huanghuali or not
Posted By: Michael Mon, Feb 18, 2019

If you got huanghuali Funiture let me know and I would buy it . My whatapps +86 15861003268


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