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Subject:I need help identifying a hongshan jade piece.
Posted By: Christine Mon, Oct 01, 2007 IP: 69.86.19.169

I posted these pics at a wrong place earlier. Is this real or fake? Can the Hongshan experts here tell me? Thanks in advance.







Subject:Re: I need help identifying a hongshan jade piece.
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Mon, Oct 01, 2007

Christine,

1. Where was it purchased?
2. What is the provenance?
3. How much was paid for it?
4. How would your example compare with the authenticated examples as published and vetted by reputable sources?
5. How do you know that it is jade?

Instead of forming theories and going through exhaustive and analytical dissertations, by asking these questions will automatically designate the verity or falsehood of the object in question.

So how would you answer the forum with the formatted questions asked?

Regards, Edward Shumaker

Subject:Re: I need help identifying a hongshan jade piece.
Posted By: Bill Tue, Oct 02, 2007

Hi, Christine:

I think you may have come to the wrong place for opinions on your Hongshan piece. While there are quite a few jade experts in this forum who are experts in dynasty jades ranging from Shang dynasty to Qing dynasty, I do not believe Hongshan jades are their forte. The only member in this fourm I believe who can give you at least an honest and credible opinion will be Diasai. However even he was being ridiculed by other members in believing he could actually find an authentic Hongshan jade or he really knew anything about neolithic jades. I know by saying that I would not endear to many other forum members but I am just trying to be brutally honest.

You see, the problem is the collecting of Hongshan jades is actually quite new, less than 100 years and this is really quite a short time by the Chinese standard. Hongshan jades were never discussed prior to 1930. There are simply not that many literatures regarding this field even just 10 years ago, recently more Hongshan books have been published by Hongshan jade experts in China. A few were written by Chinese archaelogists who had actually been involved in the actual excavation of jades in Hongshan sites such as the Hongshan guru, Guo Da Shun. Unfortunately, Professor Guo would not recorgnize any Hongshan jades as authentic unless they were excavated by him or by other archaeologists endorsed by him. Many other Hongshan book writers have been collecting Hongshan jades all their lives, but many of them without any academic and archaeological trainings or credentials and therefore their opinions were frowned upon by some members in this forum. In short, we have a very ambiguous situation here:

Many western Hongshan jade collectors simply cannot obtain any first-hand knowledge on Hongshan jades from any Chinese litereatures including books, articles or Chinese web sites because they cannot read Chinese. Even if they can read Chinese many of them refuse to believe any literatures or articles written by Chinese Hongshan jade experts who were not endorsed by the Chinese government or museums. This thinking actually has some meritss because a few of the Chinese Hongshan jade experts who lack official trainings may post theories instead of facts regarding Hongshan jades. However, due to such lack of first-hand references, they have to rely on second-hand references found in English literatures. Many of these second-hand literatures were not endorsed by either the Chinese government or their museums and many times the information or Hongshan pieces shown by them were not genuine and can be misleading. Yet it is this type of literatures many western Hongshan jade experts based their opinions on how they are authenticating Hongshan jade pieces. Almost every serious Chinese jade collector knows about the jade terminologies such as "Se Jian" (color stains or color diffusion) or "Bao Jiang" (the gel-like luster found on archaic jade pieces as a result of deposit of sweat or oil from human contacts with the jade piece) because these are two extremely important criteria used by them to identify any archaic jade piece. Yet many western jade collectors have never heard of such terms and when it was brought up by me for discussion, I was accused one of the terms was an invention of another Chinese jade pal and myself.

However, even after saying this I do not mean there are no real Hongshan jade experts outside China. Yes, I believe there are a few but they are the one who always keep an open mind and who obtain their Hongshan knowledge first-handed by studying all Hongshan literatures including the Chinese one. Thormorton may be one of the few places outside China I believe you may find some genuine Hongshan jades but they are not cheap. You simply cannot find too many Hongshan jades in any auctions held by famous auction houses such as Sotheybys or even inside China. The last time a Hongshan jade broke the auction record is a few years ago in one of the auction in China. Now why is that? It is because even Chinese Hongshan jade experts can be fooled into autenticating high quality fakes as authentic Hongshan jades. Therefore nowadays, many large auction house shum away for listing any Hongshan items. They simply do not have the expertise or know how in authenticating them with 100% accuracy. Another example, even famous museum can be fooled. Not too long ago, the National Palace Museum in Taiwan had acquired several "authenitc" Hongshan jade pieces and they were displayed in the museum. They were so bad that many experience Taiwan Hongshan collectors told the museum that they were fake but the museum curators simply refused to listen since they were the experts and therefore could not make such errors. To make a story short, the museum finally had to admit they were indeed fakes and had to cancel the exhibition. Therefore I believe the biggest problem is not even whether you can find an authentic Hongshan jade during your life time or not. You may excavate a real piece yourself but unless you can document it with an official Chinese source you would not be able to convince too many people that your piece is truly authentic even you know for sure that it is real because you dig it up yourself.

Does that mean there is no hope? Yes, I believe there is hope, but you will have to study and study and knowing that you may never be able to find an authentic piece in your life time no matter how hard you study. The more you know about Hongshan jades the more frustrated you will become because you know the chance of finding a genuine Hongshan piece in your life may be similar to winning a lottery.

Now, sorry for side tracking.

Without any disrespect, I believe those questions brought to you by another esteemed member in this forum is kind of crazy. The are good is they are for an experience Hongshan jade collector. If you already know the answers all these questions, why would you need to post this piece in this forum for the opinions of the "experts"? (*By the way, I believe you may have better luck in posting your piece in the Chichochai forum, they actually have quite a few very serious and knowledgeable Hongshan jade collectors there. But be prepared, sometimes they can be quite brutal too.)

I do not believe where you purchased this piece has anythig to do with its authenticity. Some forum members automatically labeled all Hongshan jades listed on ebay as fakes. While the price paid for a Hongshan jade may have something to do with its authenticity because nobody will knowingly sell a genuine Hongshan piece for peanuts. However, it does not mean if you pay a fortune for a Hongshan piece it will guarantee its authenticity. Such thinking is both faulty and illogical. One of the top Hongshan jade experts, Mr. Sun Shoudao, actually believed his friend could still find 5 -6 pieces of authentic Hongshan jade pieces each year in the Pan Jia Yan (an antique market opened on weekends) in BeiJing, China. There is a new book written by him and another author fixed to come out, you can purchase it from www.paragonbooks.com

��ɽ�Ļ�������Ʒ�¼�
Hongshan wenhua yuqi xinpin xinjian
The Discovery of New Type of Hongshan Culture Jade Carvings
���ص� & �����
Sun, Shoudao & Liu, Shujuan
9.25" x 12", 331 pp., 325 color plates, text in Chinese and English, cloth, Changchun, 2007.

I do not know Mr. Sun personally therefore I have nothing to gain by promoting his book but he is one of the top Hongshan jade experts in China and is well respected.

If you know how to "compare your piece with any with the authenticated examples as published and vetted by reputable sources", you will not need to post this piece here.

How do you know it is jade? Of course it is jade. Your piece is made of one of the high quality dark green nephrite typical of the Manassa (River) nephrite jade found in making Hongshan jades. After testing and analyzing over 1,000 pieces of jades, I can tell by just glancing its picture to tell it is made of good nephrite with at least a S.G. of 2.95 or higher with a hardness probably between 5.5 to 6.

There are many of this type of orange-green nephrite peebles found around Anshan, Liaoning, especially in the ancient Hongshan era. I believe you can still find them but not in any large quantity.

Your piece was made of good nephrite. The orange color found on its head seems to be natural texture of the jade itself and not a true color diffusion. However, I cannot tell the orange color diffusion found at its tail end. It looks it can be true "Se Jin" (Sik Chum), look closely and if you can see a crack line. If there is one, then you can see the color stain will start seeping through the crack line and then gradually diffused (spread) deep into the jade piece. This will be an indication of the age of the jade piece. One good things about your piece is that you do not see any white stuff (or patina) covered up the whole piece or the grooves/carving lines (to prevent you from looking at the modern tool marks). I do not know what the correct name of your piece. It seems to have a cicada body but with a head of ? I cannot remember I have ever seen any genuine pieces resemble yours. I have to go home and check all my Hongshan books first.
However, I like the shape of its eyes, it is the typical "willow leaf" shape eyes found in many authentic Hongshan pieces. I do not like its horns (or whatever you call them), because they just do not look right. Its luster is only average and I cannot detect any bao-jiang on its surface (like a gel-like layer wrapped around the piece). I do not know if it is due to the pictures. Normally, one of the most vital characteristic of real Hongshan jades is its luster because at that time they use animal pelt and grease to acheive superb luster. This kind of polishing skill is no longer avialbale this day. Therefore, many genuine Hongshan pieces will shine like a "gem" among all other lesser pieces. I cannot see the carvings on your piece from your pictures, please examine them closely and see if you can detect any modern tool marks (such as many small horizontal line inside their grooves)
Many times you will see long and even lines on Hongshan pieces from the top to its bottom, this is typical of many New Stone Age jade carvings. It is hard to describe it here. Furthermore, look inside its two holes and examine its threads, if they are all even and complete, then it may be made modern. If part of the thread appear to be missing and the distance between thread lines are uneven or you may see luster inside the holes, then it is possible due to carving/drilling with ancient tools.

Unless I can personally examine your piece and get a better picture. I really do not believe your piece is an authentic Hongshan piece, based on my very limited experience. I believe it is a better made copy that was made of real nephrite in a much latter date. However, I am a novice myself I believe Diasai or other experienced jade experts may be able to give you a more accurate opinions.

The reason I am saying that is because this type of nephrite (dark green mixed with orange)was still available for a long time after the Hongshan era and therefore copies can still be made. In my limited experience, I found that any Hongshan jade pieces that are made of truly unique and extinct jade materials have the best chances of being authentic because fakers simply cannot get hold of such materials to made fakes. The materials I am talking about will be a celadon (light green) high-quality nephrite that has a S.G. of 3.10 or higher and a hardness of 6.5 or higher. At first glance, such material resembles serpentine and many colletors will be fooled by its look and call it serpentine. However, if you take a closer look at it, its luster will be shinning like Christmas lights and you will be blinded by its luster. A modern serpentine piece simply cannot have this type of luster because it is simply too soft (that is why jadeite always seems to have brigher luster than nephrite because jadeite is much harder than nephrite). If you can find new stone age polishing and carving on such piece, accompanied with signs of "aging", then no matter what other people said, you have a great piece. I also believe there are genuine Hongshan pieces made of shinning yellow jade material (I cannot confirm whether it is serpentine or nephrite; if it is nephrite, bright or pale yellow with superb luster, then it has to be a real piece). Same may apply to any Hongshan piece that were made of Hetian jade (top quality white nephrite), however I have never seen one and Hetian jade is still available in China therefore high quality fakes can still be made.

Please excuse my rambling but I believe you piece deserves a better treatment than being bombarded with so many tedious questions.

Thanks.

Bill

Subject:Re: I need help identifying a hongshan jade piece.
Posted By: Gman Tue, Oct 02, 2007

Hi Christine,

Any reputable museum curator, major or minor auction house, or jade dealer with a well known location and reputation would have asked the same questions.
So the purpose of the questions should make perfect sense, same as posting photos makes perfect sense.

Other than the question regarding the determination of whether your piece is jade, the questions posed are not specific to jades or the Hongshan period, but rather to begin to determine the likelyhood of authenticity of "anything" one might own which they then want to verify the authenticity of.

If you got it from a great aunt who was married to a sea captain well known to collect items during his travels in Asia, or at the local church parking lot sale would not only shed light on the "likelyhood" of authenticity-or not, it would also provide provenance-or not.

Much like the initial questions a doctor would ask to begin forming a diagnosis starting with the complaint "I don't feel well".

He may start with "Where does it hurt?"
From there he will know the next question because he is a doctor.
He will not give you a 10 minute speech on the various parts of the body's circulatory system if you are complaining of a sore ankle.

Physical examination of the piece is a lot better than photos, as with the examination of the doctor, his diagnosis will be more accurate if you are in his examination room when he makes it.

Someone claiming to know the authenticity of your piece from just looking at photos without asking any questions, would be like if a doctor looks at a photo of you with a sick look on your face and prescribes a strong drug, or surgery without properly diagnosing your condition.
Turn around and run!

I am guessing you will see the common sense in the questions asked, and the absurdity of not asking those questions.

Call Sotheby's or Christies, or look at their websites to the section on appraisals, and see if they are not asking the same types of questions.

It need not be terribly overwhelming, you simply might want to use any recommendations and gut feelings gleaned from forums such as this to use as a basis to decide whether you want to get a paid appraisal from a "qualified" appraiser or even better, from a "qualified" museum curator.

And don't be in a hurry to sell it to anyone.

And most of all, beware of wolves in sheep's clothing, and of people with issues and agendas.

Cicadas are fun, in the village where I stay when I work with refugees along the Thai/Burma border, the kids tie a string around them and use them like an electric fan.

Cheers!
Gman

Subject:Re: I need help identifying a hongshan jade piece.
Posted By: Mehmet Hassan Tue, Oct 02, 2007

Dear Christine,
I would say the piece is recently carved (last 10 years)and made for the tourist market.It is quite imaginative though, an alien face with a large penis.And it did make me laugh.
Mehmet

Subject:The Honorable Mr. Bill
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Tue, Oct 02, 2007

To the esteemed Mr. Bill,

Greetings,

I am intrigued by the vast sums of knowledge that you have mastered in so short of a time, to wit, even the ancient Chinese gods have taken note of your rapid advancement in the myriad of countless avenues of learned conjecture.

Your servant has followed his magnificence from the first day, moreover, I stand in awe of the one man that humbly joined this forum claiming no expertise and thus proclaimed to one and all that he was indeed a novice willing to learn.

I shall like to quote your genius: "How do you know it is jade? Of course it is jade. Your piece is made of one of the high quality dark green nephrite typical of the Manassa (River) nephrite jade found in making Hongshan jades. After testing and analyzing over 1,000 pieces of jades, I can tell by just glancing its picture to tell it is made of good nephrite with at least a S.G. of 2.95 or higher with a hardness probably between 5.5 to 6."

Your servant is humbled in the presence of the jade master, that by a mere glance he can ascertain if a hardstone is indeed a nephrite, notwithstanding, the wise one can evaluate the hardness of the stone without handling it..., just amazing, truly amazing.

Do not think that I come to undermine your great observations, but don't you think that Christina should have the chance to evaluate your supreme authority?

I mean, she should should read every post that you have submitted to this forum, to wit, it is fair that she could ascertain the value of your dissertations without blindly following your sage advise, that way she could fully appreciate the full impact that you have made on us all.

Once again Bill, thank you so much for all the hard work and thought you've put into this forum.

Regards, Brutus Maximus



Subject:Re: The Honorable Mr. Bill
Posted By: Larry Wed, Oct 03, 2007

This piece is carved from a dark green nepherite boulder. The jade boulder has been aged for many millenias in the ground and as a result the skin of the bopulder has dark and calcified inclusions. This object has been carved from the nepherite found close to the surface of the jade boulder. The back tail and the head of the object is close to the skin of the boulder and therefore has the inclusion and the middle front area without the inclusion is further from the skin. If you look at the object carefully you will find that the inclusion, dark or white radiates from the skin area on the head and tail of the object. In authentic object the inclusions are found quite evenly in smaller patches all over the object and radiates into the object from all points from the surface.another point is that there will be lots of mini dark micro fissure staining throughout the object. Also another important point is that inclusions often follow the carved lines on the object and in this one it doesn't. the white flakes are due to crystals in the jade object and and is found quite commonly in green jade. If you want to know more about jade you need to visit mainland china and take your object to a high end dealer like the guardian auction house in beijing and have a chat with a specialist they will be happy to teach you. Cheers Larry

Subject:Your opinion makes the most sense so far
Posted By: Bill Wed, Oct 03, 2007

Hi, Larry:

Thank you so very much. Your comments made the most sense so far. That means many Hongshan fakes are made with "old" jades and that is why is so difficult to tell how old they are sometimes. The type of inclusions you talk about is almost similar to "chum sik" and the mini dark microfissures can be found on many authentic and arachia Hongshan pieces. I learned a lot from your message. Again, thans, you taught me more in just one small message.

Bill

Subject:Re: The Honorable Mr. Bill
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Wed, Oct 03, 2007

With the export of better than 72 tons of B.C. Jade from Canada to mainland China, I highly doubt it. Actually B.C. jade by most accounts is not a true nephrite.

I have seen B.C. jade with these particular markings. You should know better than trying to evaluate a jade without actually handling it, furthermore, it stands to reason that a specialist is required to test it for nephrite, utilizing scientific methods.

On a personal note, I would really like to know your Chinese name, as well as that of Mr. Bill.

Should not the forum be graced with the knowledge of whom we are dealing with? Is it not the polite and honorable thing to do?

Regards, Edward Shumaker

Subject:Misinformed statements
Posted By: Bill Thu, Oct 04, 2007

I am truly flabbergasted with the misinformed statements made by a jade expert such as Mr. Ed. I guess is just like the scenario of a famous physician who has treated so many patients, after a while he is just so confident and too busy to keep up with the most current medical knowledge. After a while, while the rest of the medical world is progressing, this once competent physician was soon left behind.

(1) Misinformed statement No. 1:

� With the export of better than 72 tons of B.C. Jade from Canada to mainland China, I highly doubt it. Actually B.C. jade by most accounts is not a true nephrite.�

�B.C. jade is not a true nephrite?� Goodness, I hope no Canadians, especially those who are from British Columbia are reading your statement. They will be highly insulted. After all, jade is the gem of their province.

Please read the comments quoted from the �B.C. Nephrite Report, 2004� posted on the Friends of Jade (one of the most respected Jade collectors� association):

��B.C. continues to have the only operating nephrite mines in the world, and it remains the main source of nephrite production.�

�Demand for the unique properties of this jade has allowed prices to escalate to meet the high costs associated with this mining operation. Cassiar jade will be available in limited quantities at prices from $20-$50/kg for bulk exports to China, more than double what it sold for before the asbestos mine closed. Expect smaller amounts available to lapidary and small market users as well as prices about $20-$50 per US pound (not kilos).�


�Nephrite Pricing, 2004:

The bulk of the pricing has remained steady, except for jewelry-grade nephrite rough, which is rising.

Prices in Canada, stated in US dollars:

Grade aa (jewelry) $20-$50/kg
Grade a $10-$15/kg
Grade b (carving) $5-10/kg
Grade c (tile and industrial grades) $1-2/kg

These prices are for bulk exports (mine run), based on 5000-20,000 kg purchases. Prices for small collectors, users, individual carvers would be double this.


Nephrite Jade Output from Canada, 2003-2004

2003 about 150 tonnes

2004 about 125 tonnes (normal markets) plus 100 tonnes for dimension stone�

Now let us look at the official site of the Government of British Columbia:
http://www.em.gov.bc.ca/Mining/Geolsurv/Minfile/products/Jade/default.htm

In this table, they documented 51 sites where nephrite (yes, nephrite) are found:

Table of 51 Jade occurrences in B.C

http://www.em.gov.bc.ca/Mining/Geolsurv/Minfile/products/Jade/jadetab.htm

The other sources that state B.C. jade is nephrite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade

�Jade is the official gemstone of British Columbia, where it is found in large deposits in the Lillooet and Cassiar regions.�

http://www.msacomputer.com/bc/GemStone/GemStone.html

�Most British Columbia jade is of the variety known as nephrite. It is prized by carvers of fine jewellery and sculptures, especially in the Orient.�

Now, perhaps it is possible that the B.C. jade is not nephrite just like Mr. Ed claimed. If that is the case, I will be truly puzzled. Does it mean Mr. Ed doesn�t believe the Hongshan piece posted here is made of �nephrite� at all? Then what is it made of?

I believe Mr. Larry agreed with me by saying �This piece is carved from a dark green nepherite boulder.�

(*I am posting on pic 1 a large B.C. jade boulder, you be the judge as to what it is.)

(2) Misinformed statement No. 2:

�I have seen B.C. jade with these particular markings. You should know better than trying to evaluate a jade without actually handling it, furthermore, it stands to reason that a specialist is required to test it for nephrite, utilizing scientific methods.�

Are you kidding me, Mr. Ed? Even an ignorant novice like me can tell the difference between B.C. jade from other nephrite jade. Have you really ever looked at a piece of real B.C. nephrite (oh, sorry, I forgot, I should call it B.C. jade)? Do you look how different their �green� color is comparing with other nephrites? (Posting pictures of two jade carvings made of BC jades from two different sources for examples.) Even my Chinesefriends who live in BC will not touch any them. I asked them why. They said because it simply did not look like �real jade� to them. The material used to carve this Hongshan pieces is the type of �orange-green� colored nephrite found in the vicinity of Xiuyan, Liaoning, China. These types of nephrites were called by the Chines as �Colorful stones� due to the multiple colors found on them. Some of them, with such strong yellow and orange colors in them, if you soak them in water, the yellow or orange pigments will actually turn the water yellow. At first, I thought they were dyed, but later I found those were the natural pigments found inside the material. If you bother to order and studied a few of the despised (by you and some other experts) Hongshan fake jade pieces you will see the similarity between this piece and them. After I have tested so many different jade carvings, jade rocks, jade slabs (from different sources) and other materials, I simply do not need to closely examine this piece or put it in my palm to know what it is made of. However, to be 100% certain that it is indeed modern I do have to examine it personally while you seem to be able to do with just a picture but cannot tell what it is made of. I guess we should work together as a team? We will be very formidable with your jade craving know how and my jade material know how. Don�t you agree?

Lastly, for your request, �On a personal note, I would really like to know your Chinese name, as well as that of Mr. Bill.

Should not the forum be graced with the knowledge of whom we are dealing with? Is it not the polite and honorable thing to do? �

My response is, why and why bother?

Are you not the same person who said this in one of your previous messages?

�Posted By: Edward Shumaker Tue, Oct 02, 2007 IP: 68.155.225.235

"If anyone shall offend the least of these, it would be better that a millstone be tied about his neck and cast into the sea."

First of all, why do you assume I have a Chinese name? Do you have one?

Secondly, so you can find out who I am and track me down and do what you said you would do in your aforementioned statement, �a millstone be tied about his neck and cast into the sea.�

Yes, I am na�ve but not that na�ve.

BIll







Subject:More pictures of BC Jade (nephrite????)
Posted By: Bill Thu, Oct 04, 2007

I am posting three more pictures of BC jade.

The first one is the picture of two BC jade boulder posted in this article:

Jade (Nephrite) in British Columbia, Canada

http://www.em.gov.bc.ca/DL/GSBPubs/Paper/P2004-2/P2004-2-57.pdf

You draw the conclusion in whether BC jade is indeed a nephrite after you have read this artcile and all links I have listed in another message.

The other two pictures show two more pieces of jade carvings that were made of BC jade. You draw the conclusion whether they look anything like the Hongshan piece posted here.

Thanks.

B







Subject:Overlooking the cost factor
Posted By: Bill Thu, Oct 04, 2007

It is both amazing and annoying that many western jade experts continued to overlook the cost factor. While on one side they claim all these Hongshan style jades listed either on eBay or found anywhere in Hong Kong or China (stores or flea markets) are "modern fakes" including all the one that were made of nephrite. While I have never disagreed that these type of Hongshan pieces especially the smaller one cannot be fakes, I do not believe some of them are modern. Most of them have simply overlooked the "cost factor" in believing that:

(1) Neprhite material is still widely abundant (especially inside China) and can be acquired cheaply;

(2) Large quantity of nephrite are imported from Canada to China to make "modern fakes" such as those found on eBay.

This thinking, I believe, is faulty. Although large quantity of nephrite was indeed imported each year from Canada to China, the kind of nephrite that is good enough for jade carvings is simply not cheap, probably running from $20 to $100 per kg depending on their quality. This is based on my reseraches (see links posted on other messages). On the other hand, if one will bother to look at all the jade carvings that are made of B.C. jades, the color of them (moss like) are significantly different than those found in making "fake" Hongshan jades. Secondly, even B.C. jade carvings are simply not cheap. Many of them will be priced from $35 to over $100 each for small items. In short, no Chinese jade carvers or forgers will purchase such expensive nephrite to carve cheap fake jades and sell them for $1.88 each on eBay. They will use them to carve only expensive modern carvings or high priced jade fakes.

I believe, therefore, many of these smaller Hongshan fakes are made much earlier. Possibly during the 80s or earlier, using local nephrite jades (probably the one with both serpentine and nephrite in the material; always bright orange and green color, quite transparent)that were found around Liaoning, China. For the bigger nephrite piceces, the carving quality of most are so bad that, accompanied with this terrible white patina or mud, it is not difficult to tell that they are fakes. However, once a while, there are indeed a few very nice and much older pieces and I believe they may be carved during the Song dynasty by forgers at the time. They may not even called them Hongshan then but probably just imitations of earlier dynasties such as Zhou. Quite a few pieces that I have not posted here were made of unique nephrite materials that I have never seen on any jade peices listed on eBay or anywhere, the quality of their carvings are simply much superior than that of many of these bad and common eBay fakes. Therefore, I do believe they are much older although they are probably not Hongshan. It is based on this belief that I want to study them and seek the truth. It may be very possible that ALL these jade pieces are indeed fakes as those jade experts claimed and they will tell me, "I told you so." and I will stand corrected. However, based on the fact that I did obtain a few (only a few) very nice nephrite piece in Hongshan style from both eBay and other sources in very reasonable prices. The quality of both their carvings and jade materials are simply far superior than the common one found on eBay. Numerous signs of "ages" as a few stated by Larry and those I learned from examing authentic and archaic jade pieces on jade books. This enforce my belief that there may be indeed a few "genuine" ancient jades mixed up with tons of "fake" jades. Even the Hongshan jade expert, Mr. Sun Shiu-do readily admits that we must keep an open mind and evaluate both fake and auhtentic Hongshan jades together and equitably at the same time without any bias, or we will simply miss or discard a lot of the "genuine" pieces.

Therefore, while it may seem that I am trying to promote all these "fake jades" on eBay, my ultimate goal is actually to study them and see what conclusions I can derive. Of course, in doing so I will be derided or ridiculed and it is very possible that I may be naive. However, many times before a new theory or hypothesis can be proved, the proposer of such theory or hypothesis will be brutally ridiculed. Many people are indeed afraid of anything that is new and they abhor changes.

It may be possible, I do indeed know more about jade material than you while I admit you will probably know more about jade carvings in general than me. However, since none of us are truly "jade professionals" I believe at least some types of respects should prevail over cynicism or sarcasm. Any statements that sound like "physical threat" simply has no place in this forum. Thanks.

Bill


Subject:Re: Overlooking the cost factor
Posted By: Stan Fri, Oct 05, 2007

Hey Bill,

>> It is both amazing and annoying that many western jade experts continued to overlook the cost factor.

As one not claiming to be any sort of jade expert, I have a question. I will ask this question in such a way as to generate much riot and furor. ;-)

The Hongshan items you have shown us appear to be made out of the same stone one would use to build a garden wall. Wouldn't the cost factor of that stone be low?

Cheers,
Stan

Subject:Re: Overlooking the cost factor
Posted By: Bill Fri, Oct 05, 2007

Stan:

Try to buy a nephrite rock or slab that weighs at least 1 kg and you will understand. No point in wasting my time to explain to you if you have already made up your mind or have never done any studies in nephrite.

I am actually reall gald that nobody will pay attention to any of these pieces so I will have more time in studying them.

I just studied an extremely rare Hongshan style "Cloud Pei" that was made of semi-transparent high quality green nephrite with beautiful carvings. The one thing that impressed me the most with this piece are all these brown-yellowish soil stains that had become a part of the jade itself and simply could not be washed. A few Hongshan jade books specificallly mentioned this type of green nephrite materials and the same type of yellowish "soil stains" found on them. Although I am not convinced this is indeed a Hongshan piece, I sincerely believe it is a very old piece. I cannot find a sinle modern tool mark on it and the carvings are similar to the type of new stone age carvings found on older pieces.

On a few other pieces including several smaller jade turtles and two medium size monsters I acquired from two different dealers were made of yellow nephrite with red stains covering their surfaces. The hardness is little bit higher than 5 and their specific gravity confirms they are nephrite. The carvings especially the holes found on the are much better than most eBay Hongshan style jades. I have only seen them for sales for a very short period and can not find pieces made of similar materials any more. This type of unique nephrite cannot be found readily to make Hongshan fakes.

If you have not seen and studied a lot of these Hongshan pieces and examine their materials and carvings closely you will not understand what I am trying to convey. If you will just put down your "prejudice" (toward these items) for just one second. Pick a few pieces that look very interesting to you, buy them and study them, then may be you have something to share with us.

Thanks.

Bill

Subject:Look at this piece
Posted By: Bill Fri, Oct 05, 2007

Hi, Stan:

Look at this piece, can you make anything out of it?

It looks kind of strange to me because it doesn't look like any Hongshan bird I have ever seen anywhere. However, the dealer had not described it as Hongshan yet. It looks like serpentine to me if not those "soil stains" found on it. I wold have called it a "modern fake" except all these soil stains and weathering are a sign of old age. (It is possible a new piece made of old jade.) There is a slight possibility these stains are fake, but I do not think so. The weathering on it looks real and therefore makes me think it is serpentine, because such weathering seldom appeared on nephrite. I do not know why there are four sets of holes drilled on the back of the bird. That simply does not make any senses unless a "forger" believe if they drilled more holes it will made people like me believe they are old pieces.

Do you believe this may be an interesting study piece or do you believe it is just another piece of junk that used to build your "garden wall"? How would you know if you do not study it personally yourself since you did say, "As one not claiming to be any sort of jade expert."

If you do not believe what I said, went to look at the jade rabbit piece posted by Robert and the black jade figure piece posted by James. It is hard to tell what they are.

Bill







Subject:Re: Look at this piece
Posted By: Stan Sun, Oct 07, 2007

Bill,

Sure I have a prejudice (as do we all). I like attractive (my definition) objects. All I am saying is that what you are showing, this piece included, isn't made of gem quality jade. It is down around c) or d) on your scale.

Cheers,
Stan

Subject:Re: Look at this piece
Posted By: Bill Mon, Oct 08, 2007

Hi, Stan:

I agree with you in this case. I did not say this is a good piece. However, when you say "gem quality jade" you have to be very careful what you meant excatly. Do you refer to just the (1) quality of the jade material; or (2) quality of its carving;or (3) quality of its luster; or(4) its authenticity; or (4) Appropriateness of its forms and styles related to the era it is dated; or(5) Quality of the weathering and "aging" signs found on the piece. Or all of them.

In this case, this piece was made of serpentine, in my opinion. Not even very good quality of serpentine. The quality of its carving does not look superb, but without examining it closely I cannot tell whether the carving is ancient or modern. Its luster is simply poor. Its form and style was not known for Hongshan. The only thing that may tell its age is this "soil stain" found on its surface. However, without examining it prsonally, I cannot tell if they are fake soil stains. It is also possible that it may be made of an "old" stone with new carving.

In short, this piece is quite suspicious.

However, my point is not to show how bad this piece is. There are many authentic and archaic jade pieces posted on many jade books that look disgusting and poorly made under the above criteria. Without the proper trainings, not too many of us can indeed be able to identify such pieces as archaic or authentic.

If you will ever bother to study a few of the pieces listed on eBay, especially the one that were made of quality and uniqe jade materials, with brillant luster, excellent carvings, with convincing weathering and "age" signs you may discover something - they are not modernly made but how to date them correctly will be the most difficult challenge. Sometimes, their looks can be deceiving to the untrained eyes. Just like Wingchutaiji said in one of his messages:

"To most people, especially the lay people and the ignorant skeptics. They won't know how to spot a good and old item at eBay. Unlike four to five years back while eBay had been flooded with replica mixing with occasionally some genuine items, you can hardly find any cheap authentic pieces surfacing anymore."

Strangely enough, his statements seem to validate both your and my sentiments even though they seem to contradict each other.

Bill


Subject:To the Esteemed Mr. Shumaker
Posted By: Bill Wed, Oct 03, 2007

To the most esteemed Edward Shumaker:

Thank you for your compliment.

While I may not know jades as much in general regarding their authenticity or dating as your esteemeed "sir", I do believe I know jade material more than an average collector just from examining their digital pictures alone. This is a knack I have developed from examining the pictures of more than 1,000 pieces of jades either listed on eBay or othere web sites, then purchased them by my friend, B or myself. I will draw my initial conclusion regarding its material and then testing the jade pieces upon arrival with both hardness (mineral hardness picks) and specific gravity test (Pesola spring scale). Then I will compare the testing results with my initial conclusions. My friend, B, also has several hundred jade pieces he obtained from eBay or other sources previously and I have the opportunity to study and test all of them in the last two years. We met each Saturday night to examine all the jades in our collections and discuss them and what we learn from them. We compare our findings with jade books we have.

I honestly believe I have examined each day more jade pieces on eBay or other sites and have tested more jade pieces than any average jade collectors. My accuracy in predicting the material of a jade piece is close to 60-80% depending on the quality of the pictures. In one shipment of 79 pieces of items, I have closed to a 90% accuracy of picking items that are made of nephrite.

Therefore, yes, this piece is very easy to tell if it is made of nephrite because I have seen and tested tons of similar pieces. Yes, I do not believe it is an old piece but I cannot say for 100% sure without examining it myself because one can and will always err if one is too arrogant.

The most different "jade" to tell are the black one, the white one, the yellow one and the celadon one that resembles serpentine. Without touching them, it is extremely difficult to tell if they are jades. If I can touch them and feel them in my palms, my accuracy will be much higher.

The other weekend, my friend, B, show me a Liangzhu jade item that is white with some red color streak in it. He thought it was made of white nephrite but he had never seen such material before. I looked at it but it simply didn't look like nephrite to me because I cannot see any crystalline structure and it was too light. I told him I thought it was made of agate. Well, we tested it and it was indeed agate.

If you have even bothered to have done as much works as I did, you will not be surprised that I can predict the hardness and S.G. of such stones because I have seen tons of this type of green-orange (they called it colored stones) nephrite that could be found in Liaoning used for making Hongshan fakes. The hardness of this nephrite is always below 6 but higher than 5. Its S.G. is always higher than 2.90 but lower than 3. Yes, I have become an expert not in jade carving but in the material used to carve jades. It is not bragging but simply the truth. Of course, I will still make mistake, but not in this case.

Bill


Subject:thank you
Posted By: Christine Thu, Oct 04, 2007

Thank you everyone for your comment. I was away for a few days and didn't know my posting has generated so much interest and debate. This piece is owned by a good friend of mine who is not a collector by any means, nor is she computer savvy. I promised to help her get some information on line and stumbled upon this forum after a lot googling. This piece was received as a collecteral when her husbnad made a loan to a friend. They've been curious about its value.

I agree with some of you have said, in order to provide a more accurate evaluation, you would need to see it and feel it. Sometimes pictures aren't enough. I will suggest my friend see an expert if she wants to pursue.

Subject:Re: thank you
Posted By: Pipane Sat, Oct 20, 2007

Hello Christina,

Collecting HS jade for some time I hope I can help you. This is a nice looking copy of Hong Shan Culture Jade pendant.

The jade is old as you can see from the warm colour and the little brownish part, but the carving is definetly recent.
You can see it both from the general shape whitch doesn't reflect Hong Shan carving style, and from the tool marks (lines on the body, eyes, lines on the back). Also it shows trace of recent polishing work and no "baojiang".

Also be careful with antiques dealers, many of them selling fakes would find more convenient to tell your friend this is real, if they do so she should ask them how much they are ready to pay for it.

Best regards,

pipane


Subject:Re: thank you
Posted By: Bill Mon, Oct 22, 2007

I am always very weary when somebody who claimed pieces either posted or sold by others are fakes and at the same time he is promoting his own jades as being "authentic" especially when he/she fails to respond to a very honest question:

Who are you? (see below)

and who are you working with? Gman and ......


Subject:Who are you?
Posted By: Bill Fri, Oct 19, 2007 IP: 74.226.112.226
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, Steven R. or whoever you may be:

I was curious when I saw your message here with such name because I remember the person from the
http://www.pipane.com/ who had just posted two messages in the forum thanking me for posting his piece from his dealer's site without agreement. I sent you an email to apologize earlier yesterday but never received any reply from you. I also remember seeing your message representing Pipane in the Yahoo Hongshan group in which you were promoting your items and the name you used there is Riviere Stephane. I went and check the other two messages posted by somebody named "Pipane" at the forum and I indeed found the IP address from both messages identical to the one posted here (see below):


Subject:Hong Shan Jades
Posted By: Steven R. Thu, Oct 18, 2007 IP: 222.130.205.227

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detail&Id=27756
Re: Examples of Bao Jiang
Posted By: Pipane
Posted Date: Oct 18, 2007 (11:34 AM) IP: 222.130.205.227

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detail&Id=27757
Re: The ebay jade plague
Posted By: Pipane
Posted Date: Oct 18, 2007 (11:48 AM) IP: 222.130.205.227

I am curious of the timing in your posting this message here with the pictures two "Hongshan" jade rings which were supposedly purchased from a dealer while you had recently presented yourself as both a jade dealer and a Hongshan jade expert in the Yahoo Hongshan group.

I consider both Randy and Anita my jade pals and I believe it is important for them to know who you are before they render their opinions. I believe you may have very good reasons for having two identities here and I am respectfully awaiting your reply. No disrespect intended.

Bill

Subject:Re: thank you
Posted By: pipane Mon, May 25, 2009

Hello Bill,

Yes Bill,
that was me, Pipane from Pipane Asian art gallery, cheers!

These are two very obvious (kai men) REAL (!!!) Hong Shan Culture Jades from my personal collection.
I posted here two very good HS items see what comment may come out from it.


As may you know each Hs jade is unique, the total sum of genuine HS jade pieces is very limited, many are pure jewelry, made of high quality jade...enjoy

Yes, we developed at Pipane Asian Art Gallery some kind of "expertise" in Hong shan Jade (in Fact we have two experts to overlook HS items), remember we offfer FREE expertise on HS jade through our Website at pipane dot com. Yes, we are buying and selling antiques, connecting collectors and dealers.


I am a new comer on this forum but I wonder. Are you interested in antiques, are you a collector ? Are you looking for informations?


You told us you won't pay the price for an antique, well, then tell me how would you get some if you are not an expert?
Antiques market is just like any other market, why would it be different?


You have HS jade you bought from Ebay and other sources... We offer free expertise on HS jade, Help you know more about what you have in hands.

Best Regards
Pipane





URL Title :Pipane Asian Art Gallery


Subject:Re: thank you
Posted By: hugo Wed, May 09, 2018

hello guys i recently purchased this piece of hongshan jade to a good friend, he is kind of an expert, he got a lot of ancient artefacts in his room and he knows what he is talkign about i think. thats why i post on this group to get more knowledge this piece was not for me but he decided to sell it to me afterwards
i am very happpy with it and i want to check if it is a real one, some will probably say no considering multiples reasons, while others could let me know what kind it is, thnaks a lot, best regards
hugo



Subject:Re: The Honorable Mr. Bill
Posted By: hugo Wed, May 09, 2018

hey what do you think of my artefact
i got it from a friends which i think i knows what hes talking about thanks in advance
hugo



Subject:Re: The Honorable Mr. Bill
Posted By: Bill Mon, May 21, 2018

Hi, Yugo:

Just happened to come across your message.

Your piece looks quite unique, unlike many of the recent Hongshan imitation pieces that were readily available at one time. First, the material is quite unusual, possibly nephrite or a mixture of serpentine and nephrite. I had not seen this type of material before. It would be great to know if it can be scratched and its density.
Secondly its style is also quite unusual. I could not tell what it was on its back, may be more pictures would help.
Its polishing appears to be decent, though not matching that of authentic Hongshan pieces.
However, what impressed me the most are those small parallel vertical lines found inside its carving lines, which may mean they were done with manual tools and matched some of the carving techniques found used on Hongshan pieces. That said, with only one low resolution picture, it would be almost impossible to say too much about your piece. Thanks for Sharing.

Bill


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