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Subject:My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Wed, Sep 12, 2007 IP: 68.155.251.53

The scientific and analytical evaluation of authenticating a jade from antiquity requires a great deal of expertise and years of handling experience.

It is doubtful that a single lifetime devoted to the subject is sufficient enough to qualify anyone to have mastered the subject. The legendary 'Stone of Heaven' is fraught with the imperfect sense of concrete evidence, which so called science can seemingly and magically throw out a number, specifying a designated period of time, based on any number of reasons to do so.

Either based on the style and type abrasions made to form the object d' art in question, coupled with the signs of ageing; yet after all this, nothing is conclusive.

Photo evidence in the case of authenticating a jade is limited in the realm of accuracy, and I would need to agree with Dr. Mircea Veleanu that you must handle the jade and methodically examine its properties before making a proclamation of authenticity.

Jade is beautiful and it seems to ascribe to the several qualities as listed by the ancients, the keys of understanding do not yield up their secrets so easily nor will an ancient jade be as easy to acquire as some are made or led to believe.

I suppose if I were to illustrate effectively my point, it would be this..., There is water in the desert, but often it is just a mirage, yet water can be found and when it is, it is precious. So you want to collect Jade? be prepared to endure the heat and empty water bottle.

Regards, Ed

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Wed, Sep 12, 2007

Mr Shumaker,
I think you have summed up the intricacies inherant in collecting archaic jades quite poetically.

I am still amused by the Ebay jade scene and the fact that some who frequently visit there are swayed by the perceived value of certain pieces which they feel are authentic based on higher than normal bidding. All the dealer has to do is to log in under one of a dozen different email addies and raise the bid.
The only way any collector will ever know if the piece sold for that high price, is to pay it themselves...which is the whole idea of an auction in the first place.
You let the chandelier place a few bids and then let the buyer's imagination take over.

I am certainly learning that there are a lot of people who collect carved jade rocks, and there are a few who collect jade artifacts, and that it is doubtful they will ever bump into each other whilst shopping.

Cheers
Gman

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Doug and Moyra Thu, Sep 13, 2007

Ed,

Bravo. Your eloquent and keenly accurate observations apply not only to Jade, but a myriad of other Asian Arts. This board is a wonderful medium of information exchange and all of us can benefit from sharing our experiences and perspectives. But, as you observed, there is no substitution for first-hand interaction with authenticated examples. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for many of us to physically access museum or major collection pieces. That being said, compiling a good library of reference materials is always our best initial investment.

Best regards,

Moyra & Doug

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: larry Thu, Sep 13, 2007

Yes, you have a good point, even the experts can sometime find it hard to differentiate between a 1900 reproduction and a period piece especially in the art of jade, bronze and lacquer. There is not much literature to tell you how to tell the difference and different auctioneers have different ideas. So sometimes even a good provenance can be a problem. Also there is so many modern forgery that are very good. However if one is a eager collector i suggest looking in auction houses during major asian art auctions just to view the pieces. Buying on e bay is just too dangerous.

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Daryl Tan Fri, Sep 14, 2007

Very good observation,Ed.There is an ongoing exhibition Jade exhibition in Beijing. Nearly 400 pieces of precious jade articles with a long history of 100 years to 5, 000 years are on display at Beijing Botanic Garden

http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/224291.htm

Daryl

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Fri, Sep 14, 2007

Larry,
this is not true, 1900 reproduction, especially Bronze reproductions of Zhou, Shang, Han etc. are, for every expert and experienced collector easily to distinguish from original artifacts.

The same with neolithic, hongshan jade, more difficult than bronze I admit, because a very recent field of research that spread over a time period of over 5000 years and an incredible vast area, don't forget this. Certainly, many of what some, non very experienced neolithic jade experts here, ridicule sometimes, maybe soon will reveal to be authentic to some neolithic culture in inner mongolia. I would like to suggest anybody to take the chance now because 5 years more and you will not find anymore jade that now is considered fake
or reproduction by pseudo prehistoric archeologist or neolithic jade art experts.

Gman,
I never sold something on ebay, but I observed the ebay jade market from it's beginning and what you are saying about the chinese jade sellers is a defamation thatt is simply not true. There is simply no chinese seller that has ever used bidding with different e-mail aliases!!! This is simply proven by the fact that, over all this years, the best jade artifacts has all sold with one bid only or the buy it now option, or very few bids for small money. The attitude you are describing I assume by some US sellers only. The chinese ebay sellers has always been friendly and honest you can not deliberately impute this accusation without any prove. And I certainly can prove you the opposite.

Edward,
I also agree with Veleanu that you must handle the jade and methodically examine its properties before making a proclamation, but in the case of Veleanu this results in a total confusion and misinterpretaiton of neolithic artifcts (see his trocadero Artifacts proclaimed to be authentic to neolithic whatever period ). I also cannot respect his dazed attitude showing us his Freer/Sackler commentarys to underline his "authority" in the field of neolithic jade research. For the rest Ed, your "jade poem?" is obvious for anybody, what's the sense of this posting?

Diasai




Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Fri, Sep 14, 2007

I can not teach a blind man to see.

Ed

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Fri, Sep 14, 2007

Diasai,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, although I am intrigued by your claim that you can "certainly prove the opposite" which makes it sound as if you have the buyer / seller information for every sale at Ebay as you said "from its beginning".

While I don't recall singling out the Chinese dealers, whether it is raising a bid, or simulating a purchase, I don't see how you would be able to disprove my comments other than to have been the buyer, which disproves nothing I said.

The fact that different dealers may purchase an item from one another to establish a "perceived" high price/authenticity which may be remembered at a later date when the piece is brought up for sale again is another auction fact of life that is not aimed at a knowledgeable buyer such as yourself who has been tracking the Ebay jade market "from its beginning". Nor does that sale price establish or guarantee authenticity, nor did I say that the dealer would not quickly refund the buyer's money if not satisfied.

But if you are trying to make me believe that the Chinese dealers of Ebay are different from other dealers and auctioneers of the World....
It would be highly unusual.

Since it is highly unlikely that I would ever buy jade from any dealer on Ebay, I will not require you to provide further proof of your claims that you can prove that all sales by Chinese or anyone else on ebay have been completely honest, and that each customer was satisfied, and that each item sold was found to be as advertised, and that a great majority were not returned for refund.

Or shall I take what you wrote verbatim that you were only referring to "the best jade artifacts"?

As for my comments, as long as a dealer is willing to quickly refund a buyer's money and does not incur negative comments, the nature of auctions and online sales is such that they do not provide proof of the concepts I have outlined, which are in no way limited to Jade or non-Chinese dealers.
Your assertion that you are strictly a buyer leads me to believe what you are saying to be the truth as seen from the eyes of a buyer.

While my comments were from the experience of many years in the antique business, and many first hand accounts of how auctions work, around the World.
I freely invite everyone to take what I said with a grain of salt because it is better to be safe than to be sorry.

However, I wish you continued success with your future Ebay purchases!

Cheers
Gman

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: larry Fri, Sep 14, 2007

On the subject of bronze reproduction in the 1900s. There was a demand for chinese antiques in the west in the late 1800s early 1900s and as a result there was a lot of reproductions made in those period to supply the demand in the west.Some of these after a hundred years look almost like the real thing. The harder pieces to sort out is the latter bronzes, pieces from the song, ming and yuan dynasty, which were produced in the thousands in the 1900s and because they have good patina as well after a hundred years can be hard to tell from the real ones.I have no trouble telling the differences between a modern repro and a old bronze vessel but it is much harder to tell between a 1900's repro and a period piece. As a chinese art collector living in the west one should try to collect the period pieces that were brought over by art dealers, traders, diplomats and soldiers in the late 1800s and early 1900s not the repros. To explain my point on early 1900s bronze repros please look at the los angeles county museum collection of metal ware. There are a few 1900's repros. Website lacma.org/
On the jade subject. most chinese know the value of ancient jade and they will not sell them for a song on the e bay, when they can get thousands on Sotherbys or Christies or the local Guardian auction. If you bring a piece you bought on e bay and brought it to a reputable auction house they will never accept it for sale, simply because it is a modern fake, which most experts can tell.

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Sun, Sep 16, 2007

Well Gman and Edward, I am not of the same mind as you.

As you well know after a couple of more or less courteous postings by my side in this forum, I am concerned about neolithic and especially hongshan jade from inner mongolia. Shure, I am far off beeing the best expert in this field but I have been concerned exclusively with neolithic and Hongshan jade half of my live and many, many years befor e-bay came to life, also my forefathers in germany has been concerend with art from mongolia and inner mongolia (buddhism, bronce, stone, jade), long before the internet age. I have handled a a large number of neolithic artifacts, jade and others and I dare to claim that I can tell a real from a fake and in many cases from a photograph only. Without doubt, in almost any jade revision I, certainly, have agreed with what Gman, Anthony or you Edward have said in this place, because it was right. This time I cannot agree!
First I have seen, that you both are not very experienced evaluating Xinglongwa, Zhaobaogou, Hongshan, Xiaoheyan, Xiajiadian and all other neolithic inner mongolian jade or non jade artifacts because this is certainly not your lineage of education and you have no affinity and sensitivity for prehistoric artifacts.
You are well educated and trained to evaluate dynasty-jades, yet this is a slightly different thing. Instead of feigning to be experienced in the evaluation of neolithic jade you should not be ashamed to admit that you are not. Myself, and most likely also many other chinese neolithic jade experts and archeologists, can clearly see that you do not have good experience in the evaluation of neolithic jade, including Mr. Veleanu (just my insignificant personal opinion and certainly no disrespect intented). You can make belief your expertise to some unexpert audience but not to me.
Second, your repeated sermon of neolithic jade fakes on e-bay is, at least in parts, a deviation from truth and I believe that, this is simply due to the circumstance that you are seeming to arrogant to really employ yourself seriously with what is happening on e-bay (and jade market / recent archeological finds) and to follow the events and auctions diligently. I agree that many, many on the market is not authentic neolithic and authentic to the period assigned by sometimes unaware sellers, but I have seen many very precious neolithic jade objects passing e-bay in the last 8 years, please presume that I know what I am talking about. It is very easy to condemn everything you will not understand or you cannot attribute to iconography as not authentic. In your conversation in forum I have seen that you haven't even knowledge off the most basic chinese books on neolithic jade, how could you attempt to speak on neolithic jade limiting / basing your knowledge on Laufer, Rawson and the Freer and Sackler only? How can you draw conclusions on e-bay fakes? As I have seen in your conversation with Bill, you couldn't give him not even the most simple explanations on how different forms of toolmarks on authentic neolithic jade artifacts should look like. On contrary, Bill is trying to do research on questions unanswered in this forum and publishing these later here. A novice collector has more methodology and convincing answers than you, how is this possible? I think it is possible because he is dedicated and trying to understand the neolithic jade spirit truly. You are simply blinded by arrogance and this is certainly worse than beeing blinded by the unawareness of an novice collector. Third, I have not bought many from e-bay, but every jade seller I have known there has been most honest, courteous and a very, humble and nice person, never trying to cheat anybody as you try to suggest Gman. I am German and not a jade seller and I have no agenda, I just want to communicate to everybody in this forum that myself and others I know, never had any problems with jade sellers on e-bay and we do not think that any of them will manipulate bidding.

Cheers,
Diasai

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Mon, Sep 17, 2007

Diasai,

Thank you for your response and the faith that you have expressed in the ebay world community, however I am somewhat concerned for the general well being of the community at large.

Whilst the powerful and enterprising auction venue is making attempts to protect the consumer, yet they do not indulge themselves with the trifle concerns of the many fakes that deluge the market from our most kind and humble neighbors.

With tempered speech and humility of spirit will I attempt to champion the innocent that have been made victims of the (Mousetrap) antiques trade, thinking to obtain that rare chunk of delectable cheese, but instead have found themselves on the short end with a snappy kind of reality, just study the ole' mousetrap to get my meaning.

I shall attempt to appeal to the German sensibilities of common sense and reason of which the Germans pride themselves in the methodical and precised application of it. I shall do so with humility of spirit, bowing to one and all regardless of race and ethnicity.

To quote you...,

1."As I have seen in your conversation with Bill, you couldn't give him not even the most simple explanations on how different forms of tool marks on authentic neolithic jade artifacts should look like".

My humble response is after the following manner.

1. Why should I expend my valuable time explaining anything to those that don't listen nor adhere to common sense and reason? Should I assume that the honorable Mr. Bill and yourself is keenly aware that there is no current scientific data that can conclusively prove the type method of tooling or procedure employed in the pre-bronze age, and that any and all current information known is based largely on speculation that does not gender true science discipline.

Shall I expend my time in explaining that currently there is craftsmen using the same methods as outlined by Stanley Charles Nott, or do you have this publication (Chinese Jade Throughout the Ages)? Oh yes indeed an older book, but nevertheless a good one.

2. "how could you attempt to speak on neolithic jade limiting / basing your knowledge on Laufer, Rawson and the Freer and Sackler only?"

A thousand apologies, your humble servant failed to mentioned the following authors and scholars on the subject of our passion, they are as follows...,

1. Julia K. Murray
2. Yang Jianfang
3. Wu Hung
4. Craig Clunas
5. Hu Jun
6. Elizabeth Childs-Johnson
7. Zhao Qingfang
8. K.C. Chang
9. Angus Forsyth
10. Qui Yongsheng
11. Huang Xuanpei
12. Laurence P. Roberts
13. Anthony Lin
14. Peter Y.K. Lam
15. John R. Finlay
16. Jenny F. So

This is only a fraction of the authors that I have in my personal extensive library, of which 1/8th of my collection of books is devoted to Jade. I further offer my apologies for failing to mention that I have examined thus far about 200 different private collections of some well known names in the business, not to mention six different museums containing some of the most profound jade artifacts ever known to man. Be assured that your humble servant does not wish to make himself bigger than life, as my only wish is to obtain as much information as possible, as much experience as possible, to serve the needs of any wanting to be in the know.

Yet I am limited in that I have discovered that the more you know, the less you will know anything that is conclusive and concrete in the evidence of perceived so called facts.

3. "your repeated sermon of neolithic jade fakes on e-bay is, at least in parts, a deviation from truth and I believe that, this is simply due to the circumstance that you are seeming to arrogant to really employ yourself seriously with what is happening on e-bay (and jade market / recent archaeological finds) and to follow the events and auctions diligently".

Again, your humble servant failed very miserably to inform you that the fake industry is a 172 billion dollar industry, which better than one third of that total is from our friends from across the pond, and most of this trade is generated through the less reputable auction venues. Indeed it is unthinkable to assume that ebay is a part of this venture, unthinkable to imagine that the Chinese ebay vendors would cheat anyone, unthinkable that various jade forums are the very ones who promote the fake industry, who in turn sell fakes themselves.

Again your humble servant makes a thousands apologies for warning the unwary and gullible souls who have turned in utter disgust away from anything claiming to be antique or ancient for that matter, or spending a small fortune in time increments helping folks out just like yourself.

4. "A novice collector has more methodology and convincing answers than you, how is this possible?

Your servant will not grace that with an answer!!!

5. "but every jade seller I have known there has been most honest, courteous and a very, humble and nice person, never trying to cheat anybody".

Your servant is pleased to know that he can buy in complete confidence from every jade seller that you know. Will you kindly share this most valuable information, as I will try to convince you at the same time that there is perfect peace and harmony in the world.

Please do not confuse these statements with an arrogant nature, as I have done my best to save folks from spending their hard earned money on the wolves that feed on the ignorance and gullibility of the many that seek the ancient artifact for pennies on the dollar, or the few that seek answers, but rather add to the confusion and thus propagate the lies of the dishonest vendors of the jade trade.

Diasai, your humble servant desires that he inform you of the uninformed statements that seem to pour out from the depths of your soul against those that are trying to educate the public, perhaps a little soul searching and evaluation is in order..., for he who often attacks without knowing the true enemy, his destiny is outlined in self defeat.

Regards, Edward Shumaker

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Tue, Sep 18, 2007

To the the Honourable Mr. Ed:

I reread your message several times and I cannot get any "substance" out of it (no disrespect intended, it is probably due to my ignorance) except:

(1) You will not waste your time and breath in "explaining anything to those that (I think you mean who) don't listen nor adhere to common sense and reason". I assume "those" including people like me.

(2) You are trying to establish your credentials as a Neolithic jade expert by posting a list of the authors of the books owned by you and the fact that you had "examined thus far about 200 different private collections of some well known names in the business, not to mention six different museums containing some of the most profound jade artifacts ever known to man." Bravo.

However, what I really would like to say is, "So What?" How is your credientials as a jade expert have anything to do with how you may benefit other jade collectors or contribute to this forum? (*PLEASE READ THE MESSAGE FROM AN OLDIE at Chinese History Forum THAT I HAD POSTED REPEATEDLY THOUGH UNIENTIONALLY HERE IN THIS FORUM. The author of the message is full of credentials but yet he is humble enough to admit that we need more Scholars and not more Judges.)

(3)You repeatedly call yourself "your humble servant" or "your servant" and yet...

(4)You protray yourself as the protector for all these ignorant souls and your primary responsibility is "warning the unwary and gullible souls who have turned in utter disgust away from anything claiming to be antique or ancient for that matter, or spending a small fortune in time increments helping folks out just like yourself."

Why do you not use your energy to do something much more meaningful and productive for all these "ignorant" and "disgusted" collectors who are buying these fakes from ebay such as:

(1) When you see any ebay items that are fakes, send an email to each bidder to warn them. I got such an email one time from another ebayer to warn me of a bad dealer when I bid on one of his items and I was grateful to the sender of the message.

(2) Posting the worse ebay fakes in this forum and explain why it is fake so all us newbies can be warned and educated at the same time. Action speaks louder than words. Be a scholar instead of a judge. In the same token, if any newbies posted a fake here, take your time in explaining why it is a fake instead of just condemning the piece and scaring off the newby.

(3) Unite all the experienced collectors in this forum, divided them by their specialties and obtain outside expert helps when necessary, in drafting a ultimatum with suggestions sending to ebay to advise them to make the following changes:

a) All jade items listed on ebay should be correctly described and are truly jades, if they are not, a 100% refund including postage should be given to the buyer;

b) All antique items listed should be authentic to their agaes and accurate as described or 100% refund is expected.

c) This forum will form committees who will evaluate all ebay dealers with large numbers of ebay listings and grade them by their accuracy or honesty of their listings and will post a list here for all newbies to see, this way we can offer them some types of protections and may force ebay to listen because many new collectors do come to this forum for helps.

If Ebay refuses to do so, we will encourage members in this forum not to participate in ebay or warn them off bad dealers. (we need to make sure this is legal in every country).

These committees who are specialized in specific areas such as jade, ceramics, etc. can have their experts write guides in assisting newbies in how to evaluate and appraise their collecting interests.

I know many new collectors are desparate in finding source of information for items they collected. I was surprised many people do not know in how to tell if a piece is made of jade and many of these experts take it for granted and laught at anybody who are stupid enough to ask them.

I was surprised in receiving many emails from other ebayer asking me to help in explaining them in how to tell if a piece is jade despite my seemingly inexperience. However, not to brag, I did study and test over 1000 pieces of jade and non-jade items and with 60-80% accuracy in predicting if a piece is made of jade by picture alone. Of course, I will have no clue in dating them although I am able to identify most modern and not well-carved fakes.

I was also surprised that a new collector who had read this forum just wrote me and asked me for my opinions on two of the Han jade pieces he just acquired from ebay. He was so enthusiastic that I felt bad in destroying his dream by telling him that they were both modern fakes and might or might not be jade. However, I did not look down upon him or ridicule him and I shared his jade fever because he was so full of excitement in the collecting and studying of jades. I was surprised that he did not post the pictures of his two jade pieces in this forum for other jade experts to appraise because I believed he might be afraid he might receive the same type of treatments I had received here. Interestingly, this is almost identical to the general attitude of some "jade experts" in the other jade forum. As a result, I believe that forum can be pronuouned "dead" because all scholars had been long departed or in hibernation.

It will be truly sad when this forum will meet the same fate.

I have more respect for jade collectors/experts such as Larry, Diasai, Randy Li, Randy, Anita Mui, Sinoart, Kenneth, Eric Hoffman, Chad who truly know jades and are experts but they are humble and patient enough to share their knowledge and wisdom with other new collectors and therefore they help in the growth of such hobby (yes, it is a hobby and should be a hobby).

Therefore why are so many of us are spending all our precious time in fighting with each other and as a result scaring off all these new collectors who may want to enter this new hobby. Why not instead spending some of our precious time in sharing our precious collecting experience with them by explaining to them why we believe a piece is fake and what criteria we use in the authenticating and appraisal of such a piece whether it is jade or ceramic? Why not share some of our pieces here with the rest of the forum? Are we afraid of being ridiculed?

Why should we not ask ourselves the most important question:

"What can I bring to this my hobby and how should I achieve that?"

Again, this is just my opinion and since I like to ramble a lot (quoted by others) therefore some "jade experts" should not get too overly excited with what I said. However, just may be some of my words do have merits?

Thank you.


Subject:A few Hongshan book suggestions
Posted By: Bill Tue, Sep 18, 2007

Available on www.paragonbooks.com

See attached.



Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Larry Mon, Sep 17, 2007

Dear Daisai, have you ever travelled to China and visit some of the antique markets? If you have never I suggest you do. Also ask the jade dealer at the Beijing Hotel about all the absolutely fabulous jade carving he has from every period if they are real. He is a very honest man, he will tell you why they look so real. Also there are sacks full so jade carvings with dirt on them at the open air market and the dealer will say she dug it up from her garden.She will only sell you a sack full. Can you believe her a million dollars worth of archaic jade carving dug up from her garden for a thousand yuan? But wait a minute the stall next door has a sack full of these as well.There are thousands of Hongshan jade carvings of all color and lots of different types of colorful stones, even from turquoise, argate, serpentine, jadiete, nepherite and etc. Buy a few that you think is real and than go visit a reputable antique dealer on the ground floor of Beijing Holiday Inn and ask him about your jades. He would probably shake his head and show you a few authentic pieces but the price is huge 10 plus thousand USD a piece more expensive than back home in a reputable auction house. At least he has got all the time to teach you the tricks of authenticating jade. Anyway it is all fun and a worth while experience if you have not been as there is also the wonderful Imperial Palace and the Ming graves to see.

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Mon, Sep 17, 2007

Diasai,
I have no expertise in Jade whatsoever, and expertise in jade has little to do with my comments. Nor am I worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as Mr. Allen and Mr. Shumaker.

However, your state of denial as to the business of selling items on-line, or at auction has me feeling like someone who is telling a child that there is no Santa Claus.

If you want to cling to the beliefs you have... that is your right, and I in no way posted my comments to deprive you of that right.

There is nothing you have said that gives me any reason to change my mind as to the nature of ebay online sales and auctions in general.
Whether it is a big name auction house anywhere in the World, or Shemdley's auction in Podunk Kansas.

If something is junk it will be sold for whatever is bid. If something is not junk and the bidding stalls, the bidding will be stimulated to revive interest.

That is what auctioneers get paid to do and it is impossible to prove even if you are in the room.
It is beyond the realm of possibility for you to try to pusuade me that as rare as authentic jade artifacts are, that any dealer is going to sell one of theirs to the highest bidder even if it means losing money on the transaction, which would be the honest thing to do.
Is that what you are trying to say Daisai?

I am not saying that the dealers are not courteous, humble, nice people, but business is business.
You said, and I quote:
"the best jade artifacts has all sold with one bid only or the buy it now option, or very few bids for small money"

This statement does not make any sense at all, because the "best jade artifacts" would be sold
privately through brokers with complete documentation of pedigree, or through major auction houses, authenticated by the recognized experts of those auction companies, with full provenance dating back to the dig site, and accordingly be expected to bring profitable results.
The seller may gamble on the piece meeting its pre-auction estimate if it is a well known piece with clear provenance, or he may pay a percentage of the estimated price to establish a reserve price. If the piece does not meet the reserve, it will be withdrawn from the auction.

And if you lead novice collectors to believe that they will get an artifact like this from ebay, you also give them the belief that they will be able to someday sell it at Sotheby's or Christies.

Is that what you are saying?

I think you sum it up nicely in your statement:
"I agree that many, many on the market is not authentic neolithic and authentic to the period assigned by sometimes unaware sellers, but I have seen many very precious neolithic jade objects passing e-bay in the last 8 years, please presume that I know what I am talking about."

Did Ebay have a utility by which you could make those honest caring dealers aware that they were mis-representing an item, or a way for you to warn perspective buyers that they were being mislead?

Did you buy all of those "precious neolithic jade objects"?

If not I don't feel you had as much confidence in their authenticity as you say we should presume you do.

If so perhaps you do have an agenda, which I presume from your comments to be to sell your collection of precious neolithic jade objects someday through one of the honest ebay dealers who will sell it "with one bid only or the buy it now option, or very few bids for small money"

You stated: "I have handled a a large number of neolithic artifacts, jade and others and I dare to claim that I can tell a real from a fake and in many cases from a photograph only."

It is wonderful that you have the skills you say you have, but do you really think it wise for you to advise novice collectors to implicitly trust ebay dealers even though you have stated that some of them are selling pieces that are not authentic?
As I said Daisai, I wish you continued success with your future Ebay purchases!

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Tue, Sep 18, 2007

Dear Gman,
do you say that since ebay is available there has never been sold any authentic neolithic or hongshan jade artifact on ebay for
a decent price?

Your "best jade artifacts brokers theory" obvously does not apply to neolithic and hongshan jade and I pressume you know this. A few years ago there has been only a handful educated western and chinese jade collectors who treasured the real value of neolithic jade and who collected neolithic artifacts from NE-China for bargains. After long years of research these jade collectors had developed a sense and knowledge for neolithic jade. Many authentic artifacts has left china in the meantime because of a lack of knowledge on how authentic neolithic jade from various inner mongolian prehistoric cultures should look like. Archeological finds of the last years has prooven that many neolithic artifacts sold, previously declared fakes or not matching to known patterns are indeed authentic and part of the neolithic heritage of china and inner mongolia.

Novice collectors should buy books on jade, especially all chinese publications not yet translated, instead of blindly purchasing jade artifacts from ebay, this is my advice. Also the suggestion from Larry could be very useful for novice collectors; Travel to China especially to Beijing! I will also clearly say here again that, in my limited opinion, authentic neolithic jade artifacts from NE-China has sold and are still on sale on Ebay for bargain, not in large quantities but the are.

Dear Edward,
I am impressed by your library but since I'm almost always in agreement with your appraisal of jade, bronze etc. there is no need to show me your expertise. I only had and still have, a little doubt that you have missed something if it comes to neolithic jade/stone etc. from the NE regions and that maybe, since you want to evaluate neolithic jade, you need to update your libraries and do some additional research on neolithic jade from the scratch. Maybe especially on the qijia- and the pre and post hongshan cultures. Again, I respect your vast knowledge and expertise and I know that I am a nobody beside you, however I know what I am talking about if it comes to neolithic jade.

Dear Larry,
I travel to Chifeng probably in October or springtime next year, passing Beijing I will happily try to follow your very, very kind advise and valuable suggestion. Thank you very much!

Diasai

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Tue, Sep 18, 2007

Just collect what you like, authentic jade artefacts do not exist...but pls do not bankrupt me! that what my husband told me.

Old stone carved in old style with old tools. Style, stone and tool marks are just like "of the period", beleive me only one out of ten can see it is fake. Once the majority said "yes", the less will keep his mouth shut.

If you were famous, powerful..etc..the rubbish you collect will become gold urgently.

Have fun
Anita Mui

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Tue, Sep 18, 2007

Hello Anita,
I like what you wrote.
It is the way I buy, if it looks good, and I like the price, I buy it.
If it turns out to be an artifact... that's a good thing. If not, I bought it because I liked it and the price was right.
My grandchildren can worry about authenticity!

Daisai,
Quote
"Dear Gman,
do you say that since ebay is available there has never been sold any authentic neolithic or hongshan jade artifact on ebay for
a decent price?"

Why do you ask this question?
My posts are listed above and you can see what I wrote.
I think I explained quite clearly that unless you paid the price yourself, you have no idea who bought the piece which means the price is irrelevant.
If you want to come back and tell me you are friends with all of the people who buy there and that you chat with them about every purchase that does nothing to convince me that they are not dealers trading stock back and forth looking for a fish to catch.
If you want to tell me that all of the buyers are close personal friends whom you visit regularly in person and examine their purchases, I suppose that could make me think a bit differently.
But talk on Internet forums is cheap.
I can say I am typing this message from my yacht and that I am enroute to the French riviera, or that I am currently flying over the North pole in my Gulfstream IV, and while chances are that most people would not believe me, some might, and nobody can prove or disprove either scenario.
As for your outlook on neolithic and hongshan jade, I think you should sell everything you have and buy up every piece you feel is authentic, write a couple of books on the subject, become a recognized expert working for the Major auction houses, and then sell your magnificent collection.
Then you can post messages fom your Gulfstream IV whilst flying over the North Pole to say "I told you so", at which point I will still feel the same way about online dealers and auctions.

If you have any further questions, please read what I have posted above which is all clearly worded and available for review.
Now if you will excuse me, I must depart in my helicopter for lunch in Cannes, while the captain sees to the mooring of the yacht.

Cheers
Gman

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Tue, Sep 18, 2007

Hi, Anita:

Great insight and summation and I particularly like what you said, "only one out of ten can see it is fake." Do you really think that many?

and "If you were famous, powerful..etc..the rubbish you collect will become gold urgently" Is that why everybody wants to be famous and be an expert?

Thanks.

B


Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Wed, Sep 19, 2007

A couple of neolithic jades from a chinese book. If not published, I am shure they would have been declared ebay fakes by Edward and Gman.
Again, I really believe that you have not studied the neolithic, archeological jade finds of the last two decades in the vast area reaching from NE Gansu to SE Manchuria. Gman, you are right, talk on Internet forums is cheap. You are not obliged to believe me anything.

Diasai







Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Wed, Sep 19, 2007

Daisai,

Since you have said you are German I will say your English skills are quite good.

However, you need to work some on your reading comprehension skills.
Quote Gman 9-17
"Diasai,
I have no expertise in Jade whatsoever, and expertise in jade has little to do with my comments. Nor am I worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as Mr. Allen and Mr. Shumaker."

In your latest post showing photos from an
un-named chinese book the title of which for all I know might have been 2007 catalogue of modern lapidary artwork by master carver Wong, you wrote,
Quote " A couple of neolithic jades from a chinese book. If not published, I am shure they would have been declared ebay fakes by Edward and Gman."

Since the only incidence of the F-word in my posts was a quote of you using the word, I would ask you to refrain from insinuating that I have declared anything a "Fake".
You should also cease wrongly insulting Mr. Shumaker by mentioning us in the same sentence.

Cheers
Gman

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Wed, Sep 19, 2007

Scans II





Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Thu, Sep 20, 2007

Dear Diasai

Pls make sure that the book you posted is published by China Cultural Relic Bureau or record of archeological discoveries, not from private collectors.

Private museums and collectors in China are flooded with fake, some even have Hongshan websites, shops, forums, members..etc They are trying to make a fortune for the things that have unreliable prove of authenticity. And pls notice that this kind of things have never been on auction in China auction houses whose revenue is higher than Crysty's and the Soltheby's.

If I have more money I can also publish my own collections, I do not care who gonna buy my books, but it will push my fake things to be authentic, that is the main reason, printing a book in China is cheaper than a pack of toilet paper in HK.

Have fun.

Anita Mui



Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: wingchuntaiji Thu, Oct 04, 2007

I am with Anita that anyone can publish a book. It is not impossible to collude with some provincial governmental agency's head guys in China by "donating" or "contributing" something to "sponsor" some "activities" to get one's name on the list or to get an endorsement!

Common sense tell us that a seller commits a conflict of interest and crime by attempting to create some new standards by publishing books. Then use their created bogus standards to sell their merchandise. By creating a new rare and not commonly known category and a new niche, the fakers can open up a new gold mine. The items such as the turtoise carapace is an obvious fake that has been color-enhanced with yellow dye. I have seen better copies with real green nephrite like that before. The Chinese government of course will not bother these people because they are not stealing the national treasures, and are only selling "modern reproductions". But, they may be prosecuted in the future for fraud.

Under business ethics and business law, no seller can defraud people in the United States by selling fakes and providing false provenance like Dr. What! and the fake jade story-teller who poses as a jadelover in this forum! They can temporarily get away with their fraudulent deeds, but the Fed and the Interpol will finally catch up with these culprits! May be too many people are still being fooled and not able to find out that they have been taken until many years later. By the time the victims launch their complaints, the culprits will disappear and may retire somewhere in Switzerland. Too bad, there are too few complaints, and the complaints only goes to ebay and some auction sites, and not the government.

I would advise these people to bring their purchase to get different opions from other established antique dealers and the museum curators in their area! Don't just take the seller's words. They may not be the experts that they disguise!

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Larry Thu, Sep 20, 2007

Dear Daisai, I hope you are aware that there is alot of publications on art in China that are done by individuals that call themselves experts, are actually unrealiable and often incorrect scource of information about chinese art whether ceramics or jade, due to lack of proper research and inavailability of authentic material. Only books publish by Chinese Museums- state or provincial, The ministry of culture, the state administrative bureau of museums and archaeological data, or the chinese committee for the organisation of exhibitions of archaelogical finds can be trusted as valid scource of data regarding chinese relics. Alot of writters in lots of topics are collectors that for many reasons try to authenticate their own collection base on their own reasonings. However they could be misleading themselves and others in the process, most frequently unintentionally. When you are in China remember to buy books published by their museums on jade. There are lots of publications on jade by various government organistions, esp museums. Regards, Larry

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Thu, Sep 20, 2007

Hello Gman,

you are right with the use of the F word, sorry!

The photographs are from a very beautyful chinese publication on the qijia cultures and I should make a little publicity for this wonderful and precious book here, thank's to the author and to the publishers. Nicolas already mentioned this book in the chicochai jade forum some weeks ago.

The book is called:

QIJIA WENHUA YUQI by Yue, Longshan
[Jades of the Qijia Culture]
9 x 11.5", 305 pp., more than 280 color plates, Beijing, 2006.

The Qijia culture was an early Bronze Age culture (ca. 2400-1900 BC) distributed around the upper Yellow River region of western Gansu and eastern Qinghai provinces, China. This is the first book to explore Qijia jade artwork in depth, covering topics such as the sources of jade, types and qualities of jade, historical background, environmental context, cultural content, craftsmanship, styles and influences of Qijia jades. In addition to analysis of the above topics, this volume illustrates over 275 outstanding examples of Qijia jade artwork.
ISBN 7806631267 (Zhongguo Shudian)

Thank's,
Diasai

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Fri, Sep 21, 2007

Dear Anita,

very pleasant to have you here for discussion! Your photo-collag is very funny, but obviously doesn't proove anything, what's the sense of it?

The book is not published from a private collection/collector but rather it is the first standard reference book on archeological finds from various qijia culture remains in the NW China Chansu part, from 1980 - present.

Diasai

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Fri, Sep 21, 2007

Dear Diasai

The way that ancient people created their imeginery mystical animals is to combine any best body parts of existing animals from where they lived.

That one looks like nowaday seated lions in front of temples. China saw lions from Western Asia via Silk road started from 2nd century BC. Qijia culture is thounsands of year before that. May be China had lions and they ate them all who know?

You have seen Shang Teletubbies, Shang Godzilla, Hongshan elf, Japanese Ant-man super hero on Neolithic vessels, and Neolithic China copied Egyptian cat deity, Anubis..etc. brought to you by the wilsons, chico and skylink. The fakers do not make them out of thin air, they have sources from what they saw in everyday life. Too many excuses, too much coincident, too many possibilities...and too many lies to count.


Human head combined with animals' body is later period..I think it was started from Chu State, a kingdom in what is now central and southern China during the Spring and Autumn period (722-481 BCE) and Warring States Period (481-221 BCE).

Neolithic China is mostly human body with animal head, just like Eqyptian.

This piece is possible head of shaman with feathers head gear. May be they fled to America via russia, swam across the Baring Strait to Alaska and walked down to North America became the ancester of Native American Tribes there...who know?

Have fun
Anita Mui



Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Fri, Sep 21, 2007

P.S. Do they say that where the artifacts in the book are from? If they are from private collectors, they are not reliable.

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: larry Sat, Sep 22, 2007

I would have to agree with Anita. There is a lot of made up archaeology in China, to make you believe that the pieces they attempt to sell is genuine, so beware. It is a quick way to become rich. As I said before look for the publisher make sure it is from a government department or a government museum publication.Also if you got the time and the interest travel to china and visit the museums to look at authentic items and speak to the curators. All pieces displayed will come with it's source,from where it was excavated. Beware of false excavation from private individuals. They like to tell you to follow them to a site and tell you they excavated all these things from the hole they dug. Usually they would have buried all these things in the hole and when tourist are around they attempt to sell them the replicas straight from the ground. cheers, larry

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Mon, Sep 24, 2007

Dear Anita, Dear Larry,

it is true that the above jade scans I have posted are very uncommon artifacts from the qijia culture, since they mainly used to carve axe, blade, fish and cong artifacts with a very different kind of jade from the one exposed above (light yellowish green mostly).

Please do not forget that "Qijia" is simply an generic term, under this term there are grouped many different archeological finds spreading from western Chansu to eastern Qinghai, an incredible vast area! Moreover the time span attributed to the so called "Qijia" reaches from 3000 B.C to 1500 B.C!

The first 3 above items (Book scans) are examples of very outstanding jade artifacts from the late neolithic period unearthed in the qijia region. One must be literally blind in not recognizing them as such.

There are not much books in china on neolithic jades which are published privatly and from private collections. The only 2 books I know for now are the two from the Tingjutang Hongshan collection and from this collection I cannot detect a single fake!!!

All other books on prehistory, neolithic jade subjects etc. are published by official archeological bureaus, by universities, by museums
or well known experts. If you can indicate me one single chinese book publication on neolithic jade other than the Tingjutang collection I would be very glad if you could indicate it to me.

Anita, with due respect to your expertise in jade. I think you are simply writing nonsense on the subject in question and I guess your expertise of the chinese neolithic cultures from the NE and NW tends to be zero.

Best,
Diasai

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: larry Tue, Sep 25, 2007

Pls show us the bibliography page, I will get my wife to translate it.In my opinion all 5 pieces are serpentine that have been acid treated.You see them in curio shops in china or singapore. They look worn and pitted, calcified and stained and so real but actually they are new.Do a scratch test apply a bit of etch and it bubbles. I have bought pieces like these before when i was learning and i brought it to Hong Kong to ask an expert and guess what it was fake and made from serpentine.They can be large or small and doesn't have a lustre like jade. Rub it with oil and the frosted area disappear and wash it with soap water it comes back.Serpentine is a stone related to asbestos, they have long and sharp crystals,- you can see this sometimes under strong lighting on the frosted areas. unlike nepherite. They are found deep underground so the ancients wouldn't have much acess to it, they are more likely to find a nepherite border in the river. I took them back and with help from my lawyer friend i got my money back. boy it was a fight. If it was a few dollars one should border but if it is thousands than one should sought professional advise and help from lawyers.

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Tue, Sep 25, 2007

Dear larry,

thank you very much for your learned opinion. There is no bibl. page in the book. Bill has done the translation of the chinese text from the scans and maybe he will post it here. We found that all artifacts are made of Gansu local green jade material from the region they have been unearthed. further we find that the "Turtle Back Shell jade with inscriptions" is not nephrite nor serpentine, it is described as a variety of soapstone called "Ying shi" and belonging to the qijia culture.

I am quite shure Larry, that you have sold your artifacts to precipitant. Serpentine, Agate, Quartz, Turquoise, stone, even marble has been quite frequently used as materials for north-east-asian neolithic artifacts (qijia, hongshan and all others 100). The older the artifact the more probably is the use of agate. The Xinglongwa almost used as much agate than nephrite.

I am shure and I know Larry, that you cannot find one similar beautyful artifact, like the first scan for example (Human with inlay), in any curio shop in hongkong or singapore. Please learn to distinguish. Moreover the item from the first scan has an extraordinary, superb luster.

Best,
Diasai

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Mon, Sep 24, 2007

'Usually they would have buried all these things in the hole and when tourist are around they attempt to sell them the replicas straight from the ground.'
Now why does this all remind me of good old Mexico?? Some things never change !!
Ernest

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Tue, Sep 25, 2007

Dear Diasai

Pls do not give up your dream, one in a million you would find a nice replica one, look completely the same.

Why China Museum have not over 1 hundred Hongshan jades, but Tingjutang Hongshan collection have thousand in the warehouse, eBay and Antique markets in China have millions.

Since Xinglongwa, Hemudu, Qijia, Hongshan jades are very very rare and being considered as priority of "Cultural Relics", but China Authority let Tingjutang have it all, and published his own books. Why? Because they are fake, and why there is no books from China Cultural Relics about Neolithic jades published, because those kind of pieces have never been found.

Let me remind you of your Neolithic jades knowledge (whatever number of years of experience you have excused). I mentioned to you via email few months ago, asking you to go to China and go to see Prof.Guo Dashun, a leading member of the Archaeology Society of China, whose life is working on the archaeological discoveries at Niuheliang over the past 20 years.

It was amazing that you said have never known about him. That proves enough.

Pls read the books from the China Authority, at least they will not turn one's eyes blind.

Have fun

Your stubborn humble servant.
Anita Mui

P.S.The reson why I mentioned that the creator of your seated feather head shaman might swim from Qijia Culture to be American Indian, I may go too far, but it is possible..ha?

Pls read the link:

"Evidence for diverse migrations into the New World also comes from Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) research on living American Indian populations. These studies have consistently shown similarities between American Indians and recent populations in Asia and Siberia,"




URL Title :American Indian Origin - Smithsonian


Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Wed, Sep 26, 2007

Anita, fact is that you are contesting archeological finds from the Gansu region that has published officialy. Fact is also that you declassify yourself as envious if you state that the Tingjutang collection artifacts is a collection of fakes. If you are able to find me some similar artifacts I will happily purchase them but I am 100% shure that you cannot find similar quality neolithic jade on your HK shopping tours. You should go on collecting ming jades instead of desperatly attempting to seem expert in neolithic jade, no disrespect intended.

Diasai

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Wed, Sep 26, 2007

Dear Diasai

"Luck is for those who without skills."

How can you refered that book as "published officially." If it is from The Gensu Province Administration of Cultural Heritage, I will not act against it.

"According to China's law on cultural heritage protection, all the cultural relics collected, kept and managed by state-owned cultural relics management organizations, government departments, army units, state-owned enterprises and institutions are the state assets that belong to the nation."

*See link # 1

Why that Tingjutang collection can have shops selling your so-called genuine Hongshan pieces against the "death penalty"? Why he digs his own grave by his own hands? The only excuse for his life to the authority is "Hey! I'm selling fake!"
-------------------------------------------------
FYI: I'm not just shopping in HK, I cross boarder to Shen Zhen every week and travel around Quang Dong Province and Shanghai once every 1 or 2 months. I saw a lot of fake on the street, much more than the junks you have seen on the net. Oh!..now Chinese in Inner Mongolia, Gansu,..etc..can access Chinese and English eBay and they can speak English fluently. Even the ethnic minorities, nomads have mobile phones and wireless internet access. China has satellites you know that?
-------------------------------------
pic # 1 is from Shenzhen antique shops.
Other pics are from Quan Zhou Hongshan factories.

Piles of stuffs, closely to the thing you saw in those books. And they are fakes!

Have fun
Anita Mui










URL Title :Antique Laws, China


Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Thu, Sep 27, 2007

Dear Anita Mui,

Thank you, your photos say everything that I've been trying to warn good people against.

I could just give you a great big hug. Keep up the good work!!! :- )

Regards, Ed


Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Wed, Sep 26, 2007

Last pic.



Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Thu, Sep 27, 2007

Dear Anita,

I know that there is satelite television and internet even in manchurian nomad tents, what is your point. Thank you for the very interesting photographs, certainly these artifacts seem fake but they are very different from the book ones, can you not see this. Please Anita could you give me more information on the Quan Zhou Hongshan factories?

Best,
Diasai

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: BIll Thu, Sep 27, 2007

Hi, Anita:

I am genuinely confused, according to your link and message the Chinese Cultural Heritage Protection law clearly applies to only state owned or managed items:

"According to China's law on cultural heritage protection, all the cultural relics collected, kept and managed by state-owned cultural relics management organizations, government departments, army units, state-owned enterprises and institutions are the state assets that belong to the nation."

It does not apply to any personal collected cultural items that were obtained legally. From several Hongshan jade books I have read so far, the authors of the books have been collecting Hongshan jade items for a long time. They started searching and buying Hongshan pieces long time ago when there were nobody was interested in them. It is never illegal for them to keep any Hongshan jade pieces they collected. If it is illegal as you said, wouldn't that apply to all other archaic Chinese jades such as that of Shang dynasty or even Ming dynasty? Even now it is not illegal to import archaic jades into U.S. although China has been trying to rectify that with the U.S. government. Therefore, I really do not believe it is illegal to buy and own authentic Hongshan jades in China. (*It is indeed illegal trying to take them out of China.)

I do not know where you got the following information, may be you have some insider information you may share with us:

"Tingjutang Hongshan collection have thousand in the warehouse"

"Why that Tingjutang collection can have shops selling your so-called genuine Hongshan pieces against the "death penalty"?"

Have you been in their shops and their warehouse?

From what I read, there are several very nice Hongshan jades owned by the owner of Tingjutang, Xu Qiang, that were made of pale yellow nephrite but he had never shown them anywhere. He also did try to sell off ten pieces from his private collection to raise money to pay for the publishing of his second book. I do not know if he did sell them or not.

While it is known that there are only 300 confirmed authentic pieces, however, even the Hongshan jade experts believe the actual numbers should be much higher than that.

Just consider these facts:

According to an article published in this link:
http://english.people.com.cn/200402/25/eng20040225_135852.shtml

"Guo Dashun, a leading member of the Archaeology Society of China, said their conclusion was based on the research results of many jade items unearthed at Niuheliang, a site of the Hongshan Culture dating back 5,500 to 6,000 years ago. "

If this is indeed true, since this comes from Mr. Guo Dashun (yes, I do know about him; David had been talking about his experience in meeting with him in the other forum; I cannot imagine Daisi had never heard about him, he must be pulling your leg if he said that). Then I believe the Hongshan era has to be at least 2,000 years long.

"Located between the counties of Jianping and Lingyuan in northeast China's Liaoning province, the Niuheliang ruins cover 50 square kilometers and have yielded prehistoric pottery and jade ware. Discoveries of the head of a "goddess of Hongshan," and an ancient kingdom ruins which consisted of altars, temples and tombsstartled the world in 1984"

"Chinese archaeologists have excavated 16 sites at the Niulheliang ruins of Hongshan Culture in the past two decades. During the excavation at the No. 16 site, in the southwest of the ruins, late last year, archaeologists unearthed six tombs of the Hongshan Culture period and more than 470 relics in an area of 1,575 square meters"

The Hongshan area is a very vast area, bigger than some coutries.

My friend, B, and I both agreed that at the time when the Hongshan culture emerged, the climate in that area was still very warm, moist and full of grassland, there is why they made so many jades that were in the images of animals and insects. We also believe there was a very large population at that time, much more than currently found in same areas in China and Mongolia.

Since the Hongshan culture is originated during the new stone age and many of their jade pieces are for "tools" and "religious" purposes. If we imagine there were just 250,000 people lived at the time and only 5% of the people every year needed tools (which is probably a lot higher), then there should be just 1,000 pieces of tools made of different types of stones had to be made each year. That is not counting other jade pieces made for different purposes. If you multiply 1,000 pieces by 2,000, there will be a total of two million Hongshan pieces made. I know some of you will start getting very irritated and started looking for words to ridicule me with this theory. But please take a look at how many pieces of jades carved during Han dynasty (only 400+ years). Do you honestly believe if the Hongshan Culture is the start of jade age and has such a prolonged time period, there can be only 300 pieces of Hongshan pieces existed?

"The idea of the "Jade Age" was put forward as early as 1982 by Sun Shoudao, a prestigious archeologist and a research fellow with the Liaoning Provincial Archaeological Research Institute, who headed the archaeological team excavating the Niuheliang ruins."

The same Mr. Sun Shoudao mentioned in the above article is the same Hongshan jade expert I had mentioned at the Chicochai forum. I translated one of his interview article with a Chinese art magazine and in the article he boldly (yes, boldly) said that he truly believed the actual number of authentic Hongshan jades has to be much higher, if I remember correctly, I believed he said it would be at a minimum of 3,000 pieces. He also said that his friend had been able to find 5-6 authentic Hongshan pieces each year in Pan Jian Yan in Beijian. I do not make up this statement, it comes from the mouth of a well known Hongshan expert with documented record.

(Pan Jian Yan is like an antique market that opens only on weekends. People (not just dealers) from all over China will come to sell their wares there. It is like the flea market or swapmeats found in many countries. Of course, many antique found there are fakes or copies but you never know what you will find.)

Now do I truly believe one can find an authentic Hongshan jade on ebay or in any antique markets without paying a fortune for it? Probably not very likely. However, if you have the know how, then you may never know what you will find. Do not tell me that none of you (those of you who are reading this message) have never found any real bargains (authentic items in very reasonable prices) on ebay, or in any flea markets? If that is the case, why the heck so many of you are watching the ebay all the time? Are you not looking for bargains? Why are so many of you are shopping in shops that are known for selling fakes? Do you truly believe there is one single antique shop that will sell everything "authentic"? Do you not believe that you are confident enough that you can detect the gems among the junks? If you cannot, why are you wasting your time?

Did Anita not say, "If it looks real then it is real." (or something to that effect). Do you know how many copies of well made "archaic jades" carved during the early part of the republic era and are now being exhibited in museums overseas as the real stuff?

If you truly believe all these Hongshan jades listed on any of these Chinese Hongshan jade books, written by these Hongshan jade experts such as Mr. Sun Shoudao (yes, his new book is coming out)are truly fakes. Then please do all of us a favor by posting each piece (from the book) side by side (in this forum) with a similar but truly authentic (excavated) piece by comparing them according to your criteria why do you believe one is authentic and one is fake. May be then we can truly learn and will certainly respect your expertise. No disrespect intended.

Anita, you know I have the highest respect for you and had been attacked by those Mad Dog gang at other fourm for defending you.

Thanks.

Bill

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Thu, Sep 27, 2007

Anita, Please:

Those Hongshan jades posted here are even worst than some of those listed on ebay, many of them are not made of nephrite but certainly serpentine with terrible patina and weathering. They come nothing close to anything listed on any of those Chinese Hongshan jade books. Even somebody "blind" like me can tell that. Please do not try to insult Diasai with these pieces. He will never get near these pieces with a ten foot pole. You and Diasai are the few people who can actually "see" and can tell archaic jades from the "fake" one. Please treasure such gifts. Thanks.

Bill

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Larry Thu, Sep 27, 2007

One point about serpentine, marble or turquiose items is that they are soft stones and easy to carve as well as easy to fake as you can acid treat them to look pitted, holed, frosted and stained with all types of color even buried to look ancient. You can probably carve superman or monkey man in serpentine and acid treat it to look old and pitted and ancient and than burry it for a years with quick lime to create calcification, so no one can tell it was just made last year.It is much harder to carve and fake nepherite to look ancient, unlike serpentine, and the material is more expensive, that is why most cheap fakes are made from serpentine or brownite.expensive fakes are made from nepherite.Check out a curio shop in asia, they always have a range. This material is related to asbestose, check out wilkepidia, so i am not sure if you inhale the dust you will end up with asbestosis or lung cancer, may be Dr Velanu might know. cheers, larry

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Thu, Sep 27, 2007

Hi, Larry:

I agree with mostly what you said about serpenine that can be easily faked and nephrit is much harder. However, I do believe turquoise has a hardness between 5-6 which is closer to that of nephrite than serpentine and therefore not that easy to carve. Many of the real turquoise found in China are the green turquoise and are called "Luk Chun Shi" (Green stones). Unfortunately, many of so called green turquoise Hongshan style items listed on ebay are all fakes that were made of molded white powder dyed green. They can easily be detected if you scratch it with a pocket knife and it will leave a white line. Real turquoise will pass the scratch test and is quite valubale. You are also correct in pointing out that serpentine is used to make asbestos and therefore its dust is extremely harmful to the human body. Thanks for the warning.

Bill

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Thu, Sep 27, 2007

Larry,
BC Nephrite and also Serpentine can be found together with asbestos. The danger of carving these materials is inhaling the dust, which causes silicosis, and that cannot be removed from your lungs. One well known jade carver, Mr. Robert Dube, died of silicosis at a young age. The reason: he refused to wear a mask, because of his smoking habit. Otherwise it is safe to handle those materials.
Ernest

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Anita Mui Fri, Sep 28, 2007

Dear Bill

I do not expect that this topic would be endless debate.

If you believe in whatever Tingjutang said, it would not be my place to change your mind. You may believe that eBay have authentic Hongshan pieces, just like you continue to collect. At the end of day, the truth will reveal itself as usual. Pls do not spend your hard earned money for easy-to-fake Hongshan style.

Will this kind of people tell you that "I just bought from the market few days ago", "I made it myself"? offcourse they will say "longtime ago.

The good fakers would study the real thing in detail, and will make the replica 100% like the authentic one.

--------------------------------------

Believe me China Cultural Relics will not turn their back on Tingjutang, if his stuffs proved to be authentic, they will execute him rightway. These kind of people support tomb-raiders.He is not private collector, he is a merchant, selling, buying, smuggling, finding, searching antiquities is a death penalty.

*Chinese tomb raiders get suspended death sentences.*

abc.net.au/news/stories/2006/08/30/1728398.htm
------------------------------------
Below is China cultural Relic Laws
-----------------------------------------------
Chapter V

Cultural Relics in People's Collection

@@Article 50 Citizens, legal persons and other organizations, except institutions for the collection of cultural relics, may collect cultural relics obtained through the following channels:
1) lawfully inheriting or accepting as gifts;
2) purchasing from cultural relics stores;
3) purchasing from auction enterprises engaged in auction of cultural relics;
4) mutually exchanging or transferring in accordance with law the cultural relics lawfully owned by individual citizens; or
5) other lawful channels prescribed by the State.

Cultural relics, as specified in the preceding paragraph, which are in the collection of citizens, legal persons and other organizations, except the institutions for the collection of cultural relics, may be circulated according to law.

Article 51 No citizens, legal persons or other organizations may purchase or sell the following cultural relics:

1) state-owned cultural relics, except ones with the approval of the State;

2) valuable cultural relics in the collection of the cultural institutions not owned by the State;

3) such of the State-owned irremovable cultural relics as murals, carvings and components of buildings, except such of the State-owned irremovable cultural relics as murals, carvings and components of buildings that are dismantled according to law but are not collected by the institutions for the collection of cultural relics and therefore are not governed by the provisions in the fourth paragraph of Article 20 in this Law; or

4) cultural relics not obtained through the channels provided for in Article 50 of this Law.

Article 52 The State encourages citizens, legal persons and other organizations, except the institutions for the collection of cultural relics, to donate the cultural relics in their collection to the institutions for the collection of State-owned cultural relics or to lend them to institutions for the collection of cultural relics for exhibition and research.

Institutions for the collection of State-owned cultural relics shall honor and comply with the wishes of donors and keep the donated relics in proper collection and preservation and make appropriate display of them.

No cultural relics that the State prohibits from leaving the country may be transferred, leased or pledged to foreigners

LINK: "China Cultural Relics Laws" below.

Does Tingjutang engaged in auction of cultural relics? any license?

Aren't his Hongshan pieces being considered as cultural relics, state-owned property? and can be sold? exported to Diasai (if he can afford his price)?



--------------------------------------------
Any books published by uneducated private collectors, any unofficial finds, any shops, any private collections, any websites without any referrence, any record, any analysis from China Cultural Relics Authority...are unreliable.
-------------------------------------------

Below is a new Hongshan fake product in China and Hongkong market now, they are made of white chalcedony and white carnelian...not true jade.

I'm tired of writting these kind of wake up calls.

Bye.

Anita Mui





URL Title :China Cultural Relics Laws


Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Bill Fri, Sep 28, 2007

Hi, Anita:

Thanks for posting all these laws from China, but please think about these:

(1) One of the main ingredient missed here (or I may have missed it) in the laws quoted by you is: what is the definition of "Cultural Relics" by the Chinese government. May be you can clarify it for me.

(2) If I understand correctly, the Chinese government prohibits the export of any Chinese anitquities that is 75 years or older. They are trying to come up with an agreement with U.S. to ban all Chinese antiquities from importing to U.S. that were made before 1914 (the founding of the republic). (which is more than 75 years) I do not know if they will use the same criteria in defining "Culture Relics".

(3) Now will these laws not be applied to other jade items that were made in other dynasties such as Shang, Zhou, Han or even Ming or Song? How about Liangzhu culture? How about QiJia culture?

If that is the case, then how do you explain in your being able to purchase jades from these dynasties in both Hong Kong and China including some nice Hongshan and Liangzhu items?

(4) Will these laws not apply to other Chinese antiquities other than jades? such as ceramic or pottery? If that is the case, how can so many reputable dealers including those who participate in this forum to sell such forbidden antiquities in their web sites? Are we saying all Chinese antiquities found in Hong Kong or Taiwan are all fakes? If that is the case, why would you bother to browse in those jade shops? I believe you did see some very "genuine" Liangzu or Hongshan pieces there yourself.

(5) How do you explain the presence of real Hongshan jades in oversea museums? Were they obtained illegally? Is it not also possible there might be real Hongshan jades came out of China long time ago before the Hongshan fever into other countries just like other antiquities?

(6) If many of those Chinese Hongshan jade experts who have been collecting and buying Hongshan jades for a long time and obtained their jades honestly from other people who either found them in the countryside or inherited them, does that not mean they can keep their jades and comply with the Chinese laws?

(7) Lastly, I still do not know how you come to the conclusion that Tinjutang has a store and a warehouse in selling these Chinese fakes? Would you give sources to your conclusion?

Thank you.

Bill

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Larry Sun, Sep 30, 2007

Dear Bill, most dealers in the west get their stock from international asian art auctions like the one in sothebys next week in Hong Kong. The other way of obtaining good stock is from client collectors that want to sell some pieces in their collection that they bought from you several years ago or want to up grade. You don't get good authentic jade for a few dollars from china.Most of the authentic jade pieces found in the west came from china in the late 19th century or early 20th century when the rich and the imperial family started to sell their collection. Even tourists from china will buy authentic jade from reputable auctions and from specialist dealers. They pay anything from 5 to 100 plus thousand per piece. To buy authentic jade in china is too expensive, as most of their good material come from western auction houses and ancient jade from tomb raiders are no cheaper. To smuggle antiques out is easy as most customs will not take the effort to check the laugage. May be they know the stuff that the tourist take out are all fakes. How do you explain that most bidders in next week auction in Hong Kong will be rich mainlanders. To collect right is important because most collectors are small scale dealers as most will sell a few pieces each year to upgrade their collection. It is not much different to a stock investor. To buy a fake antique is very saddening, especially for high price, as one can never get back the money again. No reputable auction house will sell a fake.

Subject:Thank you for your advices
Posted By: Bill Mon, Oct 01, 2007

Hi, Larry:

Once again, I would like to thank you for your sound and wise advices. You are one of the few forum members I actually respect because not only you are knowledgeable with jades but you also have the courtesy in giving sound advices to other new collectors. Your demeanor is similar to that of numismatists but quite different from those other members here. I also feel that your earlier advice for a beginning collector in trying to amass a collection of mainly affordable late Qing jade pieces is extremely sound and I may indeed do so.

However, as a numismatist for over 30 years in U.S., Asian and British Commonwealth coins, I learned that while it was true that it might be possible to win rare coins from auctions held by famous auction companies, the high realized prices and commission charges are simply cost prohibitive for average collectors. Further more, even when I had won some pretty good pieces from such auction houses, I found that I might have overpaid and the coins were simply not as good as they described. Many times, such purchases were final and returns were not allowed. For many years, the only other avenues I had in obtaining good coins was by going to coin shows, or visiting local coin dealers or purchased coins directly from coin dealer who advertised their coins on coin newspaper or magazine by mails. Ebay is almost like a god sent in some ways. While I have seen many common coins in high grade disguised as rare coins on ebay and sold for unreasonable high prices and some cleaned coins was mislabeled as "uncirculated coins", yet I sometimes found real bargains - rare sleeper coins that I know are extremely rare but were only listed for a fraction of their actual costs. The only reason I can recognize such bargains is due to my continued studies and research done on the coins I collected. I owned quite a large numismatic libraries on both U.S. and World coins I collect. Whenever I see coins not described correctly, such as some counterfeit coins were being described as rare and genuine coins, I would actually write the ebay dealer and told them about them. Many times I found those dealers had no intentions whatsoever to cheat other collectors, but rather they had no knowledges of coins at all. Many of them actually thanked me and only a few ignored me. I had done the same with jade collecting and had questioned quite a few jade items that were apparently not jades and informed the listing dealers, many of them were grateful to my help with only a couple who told me not to bid on their jades because I would not be happy with them. By doing so I feel that I have contributed to my hobbies.

When I started collecting jades not too long ago, I was naive enough to bid on a lot of beautifully looking jades listed by an ebay dealer in Hong Kong and were labeled as archaic. One of the attraction is there is alwaus a very low starting bid for all his pieces and the postage is very cheap. Wow, I bought quite a few pieces from him. However, even blind like me I soon discovered he had tons and tons of archaic jades from different dynasties that look exactly the same. Finally, I sent back quite a few pieces for refund, after that, I found I was blocked from bidding on his listings. Later, I found this fantastic jade dealer in U.S. who seemed to know a lot about jades, even with his own web site to educate collectors in how to identify fake jades. I talked to him and found him very knowledgeable and he said he was selling his teacher's collection which was obtained from the collection of "rich families" who escaped mainland China or pieces excavated by his teacher in China. He had a very good story for each of his piece and the pictures of his pieces were simply fantastic. There is no reason not to believe they were not what they seemed - authentic archaic pieces. However, after I spent a few thousand dollars I soon had doubts about some of his pieces and I decided to return three pieces to him and that was when I received all kind of excuses for why I couldn't receive my money right away until I actually had to file a charge back with my credit card company to get my money back.

That is why I have changed my philosophy in jade collecting. I no longer care what dynasty the piece is made of because I simply cannot tell and I cannot afford to buy a jade piece that may cost over $5,000 in an auction. (*I just saw a jade vessel made of real yellow nephrite in the coming Hong Kong Sothebys auction with an estimate of HK$8,000,00 to 10,000,000). Even if I could have afforded it I am not so sure it will be such a good investment because low-end pieces, just like coins, usually do not go up rapidly in price.

That is when I decided to use an "intrinsic value approach" in acquiring jade pieces from ebay. When I collect coins, if a gold coin has one troy ounce of gold or silver, I know as long as I do not pay a lot more than the worth of one ounce of gold or silver, I will have a very safe and good buy. If I can acquire a scare coin close to their melt value, then I know I simply cannot lose. I know it is quite crazy to apply that to jade. I know if I will buy a jade piece that weighs 1 kg and with raw materials cost at least $10-20 and if I pay no more than $30 then I will have a pretty good piece. I also combine my friend, B, 's approach with mine, in that he doesn't care whether it is jade or not, if it is hard (>5) and the carving is top quality then he will buy it. Therefore, I consider every single jade piece listed on ebay as modern carvings, if they were made of jade and of good carvings, then both of us will bid on them (on different pieces). We work as a team, he had his wife who is an artist looking at the quality of the jade carving and I look at their material. If the piece can pass both tests (quality of carving and quality of jade tests), then we will bid on it if it is listed at reasonable prices.

Now many of you experienced or rich collectors will start laughing at our "crazy" methods. But believe or not, we actually obtained some very good results. Not too long ago, we bid on a lot of 22 pieces together. While 20 pieces of the lot were junks, two pieces were fantastic - one is a jade ruyi made of white Hetian jade (with a trace of green) that has a hardness of almost 7, a S.G. of 2.96 and with the most beautiful luster and carving you can ever find. It weighs 90 gram and I estimated just material alone this piece will be worth about US$2,700. Surprisingly I found another piece that is exactly the same in size, carving and material (not as good as this one) sold for US$2,670 in the Han Hai auction in China on April, 2007. The sad part he decided to keep this piece since he was the primary bidder. However, as a consolation price, I got a beautiful hair pin with a well carved dragon head on top that was made of mutton-fat-jade. I estimated my piece will be worth about $500. Both pieces we believe were made in the late qing dynasty. We only paid about $200 for the lot. However, the reasons we got the lot is not because of our expertise but rather dumb luck because the pictures of those good pieces were not even shown on the ebay listing. Even it has, I believe the realized prices will be much much higher and we will never be willing to pay for it.

It is very possible that we can be wrong. However, beside buying from ebay I did start buying from some other reputable dealers (slowly and patiently) and I had done a lot of studies in both jade materials and I had studies as many jade books or articles in both Chinese and English I could get my hands on. I had folder after folder of jade information in my "jade room".

Since one of the advantages I have is that I can read Chinese, therefore I have been reading quite a few topics regarding jades published in Chinese literatures that seem to be never discussed by western collectors. When I mentioned such topics as "Sik Chum" (or Se Jian, color stain or color diffusion) or bao-jian (gel-like layer wrapped around archaic jades due to prolonged human contacts as as a result sweat and oil were deposited on the jade surface, this may take over one thousand years and Chinese jade collectors always look for this type of bao jiang)in this forum, I was instantly being ridiculed at. It seems there are not too many open-minded jade collectors who are willing to discuss something in which they have no knowledge of or do not believe in.

Yes, I admitted I was naive enough to believe you can still find a piece of archaic jade at reasonable price if you have the know how. However, even I would not believe all these low-priced jades posted on ebay can be authentic. This never happen with rare coins, you always have to pay for good coins. It is that simple and I have collecting coins for over 30 years. Even one of the honest Chinese dealer from Beijing readily told my friend, B, and I that many of the Hongshan jades listed by him are modern and that jade materials can still be found in Xiu Yan. However, the items he talked aboutwere those made of serpentine that you can find in every ebay site. On a very few well made nephrite pieces he listed, he actually believed they were old even they might not be Hongshan pieces. (*I know by saying that many these jade experts would be very upset.)

It is very interesting that many of these jade experts who are so ready to condemn my jade pieces are also the same one who believe their know how will enable them in finding archaic jade pieces in bargain prices. I know this because one true jade expert had been buying archaic jades not only for herself but supposedly for a well know museum in both Hong Kong and China. So please tell me how is that possible if the only authentic jades are only available in western auction houses? Strangely enough, many of these jade critics who blasted me the most are dealers themselves. Are they afraid to share their expertise in how to find authentic and archaic jades with our newbies? Is it because we may then compete with them? Is it possible they look for good bargains everyday on ebay and other sites and they are simply afraid that if everybody learns in how to do so, they will no longer be able to have a monopoly in these bargains and be able to turn around in selling them for high prices to their customers? Do any of my words have any merits? Fear always made people do crazy things and sometimes even made them violent. If you do not believe me, try to reread previous messages posted by some of these jade critics and can you not feel their venom? Is that the way to treat another collector, especially one who is just trying to learn and who is naive and cannot see?

I rest my case and I apologize for rambling again.
Your advices would be appreciated by me and all other jade newbies.

Thanks.

Bill

Subject:Re: Thank you for your advices
Posted By: larry Tue, Oct 02, 2007

Dear Bill. It is good to see your enthusiasm for collecting jade.As long as one is not paying too much for the lot you purchase from e- bay, it is all fun. I think some members of the forum probably misundertood you for a dealer in jade. It is rather hard for someone to know between old and new jade without owing at least one real piece. I suggest one just buy one piece a year and buy that from a reliable auction house like christies or Sothebys.One can bid live with Christies live on the internet. The canadian dollar is now higher than the us dollar one can get a good exchange rate. Make sure one buys the piece with good provenance or with the old wood stand, to be very sure it is authentic. Eg the large jade mountain with immmortals, with the original wood stand at sothebys hongkong, with the railway pension provenance would be a good kangxi piece. Once you got to touch examine and feel the real thing than one can tell if the piece you found in a local junk shop is authentic or just modern. As for buying in China, yes it is possible to get ancient jade, but it would be very expensive as most grave diggers are well connected to the high end retailers and they will sell to only people they trust, they will never show a client they do not trust the pieces, due to various reasons, they are mainly of the han and warring state period. The starting price of those are 10 thousand up so it is not cheap. There are probably just as many millionaires now in china as in us, so the market for real antiques is very good, the best pieces will enter their local guardian auction, where they sell for big prices. These auction houses will even except foreign consignment. Any real Hongshan jade will sell for many thousands, so that is why to find a real piece from e-bay from a dealer in china just doesn't make sense, that is why almost everyone in china knows that all those carving found in the market is almost a 100% fake. May be 10 years ago before antique shows on china tv exist there may be a chance you find a real piece from the market, but these days when there is antique valuation shows on CCTV almost every day, there is no one that will sell a ancient piece for a song. They know if they take it to a high end retailer they will get a good price for their discovery. As for new nepherite carving, the price depends on the quality of the stone and also the quality of the carving. The chinese like a flawless white color with no crack lines. the color has also got to be even and as transparent as possible. The best stones are worth a lot of money but the lousy color like the mix up color which is neither green or white with black spots and lots of cracks are not worth very much may be a few dollars a kg. May be Anita might know better. As for carving style basically the more complex and graceful( chinese sense) the more expensive. The simple carvings are worth less like hongshan style carving. Size is also a factor the bigger the more expensive.Anyway my advise is not to buy new jade as it will not appreciate in price as china gets richer. Always buy the genuine antique, even if you can only buy one good piece a year, take it as a long term investment.

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Diasai Levine Thu, Oct 04, 2007

Very interesting points Bill, I also would like to ask Anita why she is thinking that Tingjutang is selling his jade and where. If I remember well, also David supposed this previously in the chicochai forum.

Diasai

Subject:Thank you..., Anita Mui
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Fri, Sep 28, 2007

I want to personally thank you for the hard work and dedication in helping me to warn the public, especially in outlining Chinese cultural relics law.

It really puts things in perspective and clarifies what Anthony Allen and others, myself including, have been saying all along. By illustrating to the forum the many forgeries that flood the market, by submitting these photos provides all forum members a timely warning.

I have seen an evil trend by the sudden influx of people promoting these forgeries and propagating the falsehood of these fakes, by what one member called..., A pyramid scheme.

My sole conviction was to steer people into the direction and the reality, that the true ancient jades can not be had for a cheap price, nor could they be found on the ebay auction venue.

You have effectively proven your point and have assisted me in a powerful way.

I have noticed that English is not your primary language, but I think you have done a wonderful job.

You are correct, there seems to be no end to these silly arguments as Mr. Bill will not cease his prolific and foolish ramblings, although every member has the privilege to post most anything, yet time will prove that this recent attack on the forum to confuse and instill false hopes of owning ancient jades for unheard of cheap prices, will in effect show their true colors.

I will no longer tolerate this coup that has filtered their way into this forum to promote these ghastly fakes.

I can not call this art, because it hurts too many people, so many lies, so much theft, it hurts too deeply to see the innocent raped by these swindlers.

Yet some people are very innocent and simply do not know any better, they are ignorant and sometimes incredibly foolish.

Thank you Anita, and thanks to the members that supported my vision to discount these obvious fakes and putting things into perspective.

It is without doubt that Bill will continue to post his ramblings, and Diasai, whom I believe is a good and honest man, will without a doubt continue to post what he believes, but this is what I think will need to happen.


1. Do not respond to any postings that seem to be a repetition or is another redundant rambling.

2. Do not feed into the argument, when the objective is to confuse and mislead.

3. That each member utilize the ignore button or simply refrain from posting.

4. Keep an open mind, after awhile these postings will become self evident, as to the nature of the posts and the intent.

5. Allow them to post, but after awhile it will become evident to them that they do not have a receptive audience.

To Anita and to all forum members, I have been a victim of these so called ancient jade scams, and have lost thousands of dollars to these experts, in fact it has broken my heart to see a frail and sickly man invest his money into false ancient jades, thank God, he did not know any better, because he trusted his friend.

It is for this reason that I will fight the crooks of the jade trade. Once again, thank you for helping out Anita, and to all forum members that have helped to reinforce my convictions.

Regards, Edward Shumaker

Subject:Re: Thank you..., Anita Mui
Posted By: Ernest Wilhelm Sat, Sep 29, 2007

Edward,
Your 5 points are well taken, and I have advised some members to follow those. To get into endless arguments is wasting precious time.

I found this link very helpful regarding Bowenite etc.
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=27&t=19296

Ernest


Subject:Re: Thank you..., Anita Mui
Posted By: Diasai Levine Sun, Sep 30, 2007

Dear Edward,

respect for your research, as I said many times, and deep respect for your continous work in warning and educating others members and novice collectors from the perils of jade collection.

On the other hand I have this doubt that, even if you go to unearth the artifacts by yourself in inner mongolia you would claim them to be obvious fakes.

I am always sorry to contest you, because I respect you much but I believe, your opinion is ossified and your sight is trained to appraise dynasty jades. Appraisal of prehistoric artifacts needs additional training and study.

It honours you that you are spending precoius time warning collectors, you are very able in analyzing jade from photographs. Why didn't you warn the forum members from the highly dubious artifacts (for me obvious fakes!) Mr. Veleanu has promoted in this forum not to long ago (Trocadero)?

Diasai

Subject:Let him who is without sin cast the first stone
Posted By: Bill Sun, Sep 30, 2007

To the honorable Mr. Shumaker:


http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=26815#27007

Quoted from a message addressed from Dr. Veleanu to Mr. Shumaker in this forum:

Dear Mr. Shumaker,

..

On the other way you are a supporter of an obscure publication with obvious publication of modern Hong Shan style carving represented as archaic and heavily polished carvings that in the eyes of a knowledgeable collector are having no value, other than esthetic, to place them in your glass chest to impress your house guest with your acquisitions.

I consider an insult that such written garbage is recommended as representative of jade carvings of Hong Shan Neolithic culture. This catalog, as shown in panel 8, shows a photo of a Hong style open ring dragon, heavily cleaned that appears of modern fabrication. The second photo from this book shows a shiny, smooth carving with appearance of "chicken bone" but lacking the characteristic weathering. This obvious modern reproduction, shows the perforations to be drilled thru and thru and lacking the diagnostic bi-conic appearance of all Neolithic carvings

Mr. Shumaker, you made a remark that is highly insulting me professionally. You claim that you are the business partner of a North Carolina owner (as disclosed by you) and you noticed that I "badly mis-attributed" the jade carvings I authenticated. Ethycally, I can't defend myself as I have no permission from the owner to discuss the details, but I consider a low blow that is unjustified. The owner of the collection I authenticated, had only words of praise for the work I have done and if you as a partner of that business firm, noticed that I did a mis-attribution, or many, you had all the rights to tell me at that time and not now, more than one year after the facts. Any allegations should be submitted with proof of wrong doing and eventual comparison with a recognized item shown in the literature as belonging to a different period. Prior you making this defamatory statement, I had more respect for you. As you are a supporter of the Orientation magazine that is your "Bible" for Hong Shan carvings, I give you the same labeling disclosed in the 8 panels presented by your distinguished pal, xxxxx xxxxxx, that apparently you are sharing the same orientation. I don't know what kind of antiques you are selling, but hope that your antiques have a better attribution that you are claiming the expertise. Probably, you are selling barber chairs for $50.000, duck decoys for $100.000 plus, rusty weathervanes for $500.000 plus, etc., etc....
This is the merchandise that you probably purchase at Brimfield and other flea markets for $5.75 a piece!. In the past, I did authentication for a well known Museum in USA and I had only words of praise for the work well done. It is sad for me to counter-attack, but "when you raise the sword, by sword will perish".

Information on the Orientations magazine quoted by you:

http://www.orientations.com.hk/about.htm

Published in Hong Kong and distributed worldwide, Orientations has been delighting collectors and connoisseurs of Asian art for over thirty-five years. Every issue is an authoritative source of information on the many and varied aspects of the arts of East Asia, the Indian Subcontinent and Southeast Asia.
There are beautifully illustrated articles on the ancient arts of painting, calligraphy, bronzes and ceramics, on the decorative arts and crafts as well as selections from the portfolios of contemporary artists.
Orientations also provides invaluable insights into the international Asian art market, analyzing activities at major auctions in London, New York, Hong Kong, Beijing and other centres to reveal the latest price and collecting trends.
Issues of Orientations include comprehensive calenders of all major Asian art exhibitions worldwide, as well as reviews of notable books on Asian art, architecture and archaeology.
Orientations is unique in its presentation and is itself a collector's item, with the quality of its content matched by the excellence of its design and production. `Perfect bound' with a strong laminated cover, it contains some 84 pages printed on luxury art paper, many of them with the superb full-colour reproductions for which Orientations is renowned.
Orientations is a magazine that you will enjoy at your leisure, and that you will keep to read and refer to, again and again.
I do not recognize that the Orientations magazine is published by any museums or let me quote what Anita said,

Pls make sure that the book you posted is published by China Cultural Relic Bureau or record of archeological discoveries, not from private collectors.

Any books published by uneducated private collectors, any unofficial finds, any shops, any private collections, any websites without any referrence, any record, any analysis from China Cultural Relics Authority...are unreliable.

Or what Larry said,

I hope you are aware that there is a lot of publications on art in China that are done by individuals that call themselves experts, are actually unrealiable and often incorrect scource of information about chinese art whether ceramics or jade, due to lack of proper research and inavailability of authentic material. Only books publish by Chinese Museums- state or provincial, The ministry of culture, the state administrative bureau of museums and archaeological data, or the chinese committee for the organisation of exhibitions of archaelogical finds can be trusted as valid scource of data regarding chinese relics. Alot of writters in lots of topics are collectors that for many reasons try to authenticate their own collection base on their own reasonings. However they could be misleading themselves and others in the process, most frequently unintentionally.

Are you not going against the advice of the above forum members by quoting the Orientations magazine and used it as the basic for your recent thread, An Observation on Ancient Jades? (http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/27007)

Also, according to what Mr. GMAN said,

It is seeming more and more apparent that the only sensible way to make sense of the many differing opinions over jade artifacts is to go by the "official" museum literature, instead of the ceaseless bantering back and forth between the Ebay-ites and others who seemingly are applying wishful thinking and their personal interpretations of history and archeology as the primary justification of their own collections.

Adding fuel to the fire of speculation, they then quote and show photos from more sources which are not published by any "official" source, but rather another "un-official" source.

Are you not also guilty as charged by quoting from an unofficial source?

And yet in your recent message, your spoke with such arrogance and vindictiveness:

I will no longer tolerate this coup that has filtered their way into this forum to promote these ghastly fakes.

It is for this reason that I will fight the crooks of the jade trade. Once again, thank you for helping out Anita, and to all forum members that have helped to reinforce my convictions.

Wow, so very righteous and yet you are equally guilty of being accused of promoting phony Hongshan jades by posting pictures of modern Hongshan jades from the Orientations magazine (see above quotes of Dr. Veleanu.)

Worse yet, you made a cheap shot by attacking Dr. Veleanu in this forum and he couldnt defend himself because as he said, Ethycally, I can't defend myself as I have no permission from the owner to discuss the details, but I consider a low blow that is unjustified.

This shows your vindictiveness.

You mentioned that:

To Anita and to all forum members, I have been a victim of these so called ancient jade scams, and have lost thousands of dollars to these experts, in fact it has broken my heart to see a frail and sickly man invest his money into false ancient jades, thank God, he did not know any better, because he trusted his friend.

I feel bad for both you and your friends in getting ripped off by somebody whom you trusted. But in real life these things happened all the time. I had also been misled by my best friend, B, whom I trusted and still respected and bought lots of fake jades from dealers he trusted. (some from him when I first started) However, he did it without malice and he was also a victim. I also lost several thousand dollars in buying high-priced fake jades from a dealer (TJR) whom I trusted. However, unlike you I did do something about it and recaptured some of my money. I also did my part to warn other new collectors about these dealers. As a result, I was no longer allowed to bid on some of these dishonest dealers auctions and I am truly glad. In any fields of collecting, this is almost a common occurrence. (That is, got ripped of when one first started.) When I first started collecting coins twenty years ago, I paid higher than retail prices on many common coins from local dealers because I was greedy and nave. I believed I could find and buy coin bargains at below-market costs. Many Chinese truly believe that when one first starts collecting anything, he must pay some types of tuition for the cost of learning. However, if one refuses to learn after he got cheated repeatedly, then it is nobody but his own fault. Just like the saying, Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me; Food me thrice,?????

If you cannot help your friend to capture his loss through legal means, may be you should have if he allowed or you could have done something to help yourself instead of venting your frustration on me. Any pyramid scheme or any pigeon drop scheme simply will not work unless the victims are a little bit nave and greedy. You cannot always place the blame on the con man alone. In this case, I had been the victim but I had never listed any of my jade items for sales in any auctions or any web sites in order to cheat others. Unlike you, I am a collector only. On the other side, you are a dealer who is trying to sell stuff to other collectors. You do not need to continue to bad-mouth me unless you are afraid of something. You do not need to look too far away, just look at the other jade forum which is now nearly dead. The reason for their dismayed fate is because several jade dealers who continue to sell fake jades to other forum members had done their very best to drive away any respectful and learned members who know about jades and who dare to speak out. They simply could not tolerate their existence because their honest opinions would damage their business . If you do not believe me, just ask Anita.

Therefore, unless you truly have a personal agenda in this forum you should not be so narrow-minded and drive away anybody whom you dislike or disagree with because after all as the Bible says,

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Thanks.

Bill

Subject:Re: Let him who is without sin cast the first stone
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Tue, Oct 02, 2007

Dear Bill,

To quote: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

It is written again: "If anyone shall offend the least of these, it would be better that a millstone be tied about his neck and cast into the sea."

Regards, Edward Shumaker

P.S. Bill just kidding, but I wonder if you saw that coming? :-)

Subject:Mafia?
Posted By: Bill Wed, Oct 03, 2007

Interesting quote, did you make that up yourself or is there really a saying like that?

It sound like something the Mafia in the U.S. will do.

Are you really kidding? I think you may owe me an apology.

Bill

Subject:Re: Mafia?
Posted By: Edward Shumaker Thu, Oct 04, 2007

Bill,

Luke 17:2, "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

That is pure bible Bill. BTW, I have noticed that you are the second person to have quoted Bible scripture to me.

The first is Dr. Veleanu, when he said. "when you raise the sword, by sword will perish". The poor soul was trying to quote the Lord when he said to Peter, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
Matt. 26:52

Now Bill, this greatly concerns me, because I have been taught that the devil will come to you quoting scripture, and thus far, I have had the rare privilege of having two.

But in reality my friend Bill, don't you think we need to give the forum a much needed rest.

Regards, Edward Shumaker

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Fri, Sep 28, 2007

Dear Anita,

I agree with Mr. Shumaker.
You are quite adept at making your points, and backing them up with photos which bring your arguments into clear focus, unlike so many that type volumes without saying anything.

Thanks for your fun and refreshing views.
Cheers
Gman





Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: pipane Thu, Nov 22, 2007

Hello There,

This is a very long chat, But I am very found of Neolithic piece of art. I must say I am VERY skeptical about larges items Anita posted here. Anita could you mension the full name, place of publishing and autor of that book please ? (scan the cover and post it, it would be even better); I find very strange that the short description under each item doesn't mension a place of excavation or the museum they come from.

It is very common in China that private collector (collecting fake) publish their own book in order to legitimate their phony collection.
The more I look at it the more I have bad feeling.

Best may be to show you how large carving from neolithic periode look like. i'll suggest some reference book later...

Pipane







Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Gman Fri, Nov 23, 2007

Hello Pipane,
I am not sure you have read the post by Anita correctly, but she has not posted any objects which she believes is authentic. She was posting in response to the photos posted by Diasai and saying the same thing you are saying.
Quote Anita:

"Dear Diasai

Pls make sure that the book you posted is published by China Cultural Relic Bureau or record of archeological discoveries, not from private collectors.

Private museums and collectors in China are flooded with fake, some even have Hongshan websites, shops, forums, members..etc They are trying to make a fortune for the things that have unreliable prove of authenticity. And pls notice that this kind of things have never been on auction in China auction houses whose revenue is higher than Crysty's and the Soltheby's.

If I have more money I can also publish my own collections, I do not care who gonna buy my books, but it will push my fake things to be authentic, that is the main reason, printing a book in China is cheaper than a pack of toilet paper in HK." End quote.

The rest of her photos were modern pieces for sale in Chinese marketplaces.

Cheers
Gman

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Pipane Tue, Nov 27, 2007

Thank you for correcting me,

My Apoligy to Anita...

With regards,

Pipane

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: adam Wed, Oct 10, 2012

Those artifacts are published from chinese private collections, they are fakes,higher quality, but still fake... I would only use the complete record of jade unearthed in China 15 volume series to authenticate any piece... Many other books just add fantasy to the confusion

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: sean Fri, Aug 04, 2017

lol.. yes he was my father and reading your comment ....lol... reminds me of my carving bad habits.. haha

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Sean Heathfield Tue, Apr 30, 2019

he died when i was just 13. i lost my father at a young age. :(

Subject:Re: My Point Of View (Jade)
Posted By: Josh Sun, Jun 25, 2017

The key to buying good jade on ebay is NEVER buy anything from China, number one, we all know the laws regarding export of cultural artifacts. The best jades come from backwoods Americans listing for buy it now as "some kind of stone, Jade? origin unknown to me" I have pieces worth millions purchased this way. My issue has always been provenance, as barn pickers rarely know anything about what they are selling. I bought a brown and white nephrite cong as a "bud vase" the other day, authentic to the period or not, the Jade is fantastic and natural, worth 20 times what I paid, even if early 20th century.


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