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Subject:Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Lonn C Dugan Jr Sun, Sep 29, 2019 IP: 134.228.174.95

I found a Chinese dish that seems special.

It is embossed, appears to have both under glaze and over glaze painting. Marks seem to reference QING Dynasty according to my Chinese Son in Law.

Does anybody recognize it? Can you identify period, maker, style or mark?







Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Martin Michels Tue, Oct 01, 2019

Your dish is Japanese Seto ware.
Mark: Hakuundo 白雲堂 Shubei 周兵 Sei 製 (Hakuundo made bij Shubei).
It's a mark of Kato Shubei 2nd (1848-1903).
Date: 1877-1903, see info underneath.

In 1852 Kato Shubei 1st (1819-1900) opened a porcelain factory & export company along with his son under the business name Hakuundo (White Cloud Hall). In 1877 the son adopted his father's name, when he became head of the family porcelain workshop. He then continued the family business under the name of Kato Shubei 2nd and Hakuundo, producing porcelain items for export, especially to Britain and the U.S.A. Most items were marked: Hakuundo Shubei Sei.
Hakuundo was located in Seto, Higashikasugaigori in Aichi-ken and closed in 1922.

Regards,
Martin.

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Lonn C Dugan Jr Tue, Oct 01, 2019

Hi Martin: Thanks for the information. I cannot find any other Seto ware that looks like this? The dish is heavily glazed or lacquered, with under-painting and over-painting, extremely fine gold line highlights. Another person told me definitively that it was Chinese, from about the same period. Do you know of any other examples like this? Was the general pattern common?

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: mikeoz Tue, Oct 01, 2019

So typically Japanese. And a distinctively Japanese mark relating to a specific artist.

Another person can be wrong.

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Lonn Wed, Oct 02, 2019

Thank you Mikeoz for your help!

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Larry Tue, Oct 01, 2019

This plate is definitely Japanese!

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Lonn Wed, Oct 02, 2019

Thank you Larry Tue very much.

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Martin Michels Wed, Oct 02, 2019

Hallo Lunn,

My expertise is Japanese ceramic marks and although Seto ware from the late Meiji period - made by Kato Shubei, Kato Shigeju, Kawamoto Masukichi (Hansuke) - is usually blue-and-white, some pieces are colored like yours, like this vase by Kawamoto.
I display a few more marks by Kato Shubei's Hakuundo, to show yours is not an unique mark.
And the fact that someone thinks is Chinese writing, is because Chinese and Japanese characters are often the same.
Regards,
Martin.







Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Lonn Wed, Oct 02, 2019

Thank you Martin for helping me understand my piece better. Your expertise is valued very much.

I am beginning to realize I photographed the marks upside down!

The artistic effort on this piece is extraordinary, at least to my eye (but I am not an expert). There is really only one flaw on this plate. There is a rim chip that is barely noticeable on front but is significant on the back like the size of a fingerprint.

Does this ruin any value one might expect to see for a 100+ year old example of the Japanese ceramic or porcelain painting and glazing arts?





Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Bill H Wed, Oct 02, 2019

Here's a forum link to further information on Japanese green-ground Seto ceramics, Below, I've added photos of what I think may be a late Meiji-Taisho planter, eight inches high. It's apparently also from Seto, though I haven't had the inscription translated by a Japanese speaker yet. However, the decoration resembles one of the Seto vases shown herein.

Best regards,

Bill H.







Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Martin Michels Thu, Oct 03, 2019

Hello Lonn,
The chip has some influence on the value, but not too much. It is not visible on the decoration side, which is a plus. Seto pieces in this celadon color are rare, which also has a positive influence on the value, but I dare not say how much it is really worth.
Regards,
Martin.

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Lonn C Dugan Jr Fri, Oct 04, 2019

Martin: Thanks again for all your help.

Yes, I have discovered this, that Seto pieces in this celadon color are rare, as you have said. I had a hard time finding similar works.
I finally found examples when I discovered the term celadon and started adding celadon to my searches...

How about "Seto Celedan Meiji" as at https://www.pinterest.com/secondsaverbags/japanese-seto-celadon-meiji/

On the linked page I see a glaze color, embossing, and painting style that very closely resembles the work done on my plate.

If I understand it, then Seto is a location, Celadon is a glaze color or style, and Meiji is a period? Do you agree? Am I getting warm at least? Or are there contradictory terms in the description "Seto Celadon Meiji" ? Is "Meiji" not a helpful descriptor?

I know you can't offer a firm idea of value, but I see pieces like this offered for anywhere from $50 to $400 or more.

Do you think this plate is worthy of having a professional appraisal?

URL Title :Dugan


Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Martin Michels Tue, Oct 08, 2019

Hi Lonn,
You're complete right.
Seto city, in Aichi Prefecture, is located about 20km north east of Nagoya and has a long history of ceramics production.
Celadon is indeed a glaze color.
Meiji is the period from 1868 till 1912.
I think it's always worth to have a professional appraisal.
Martin.

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Lonn C Dugan Wed, Oct 09, 2019

Thank you Martin, again! I didn't want to invest in an appraisal if the plate was not likely to be authentic. You have helped me a great deal!

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: I.Nagy Wed, Oct 09, 2019

Hello Bill,
The inscription on your vase is written in literary Chinese
人間誰識許雪瓊
入冒憐樂玉雪清
秋山樵者書
In my Sino-Japanese reading and rough translation:
Ningen dare shiru nomi sekkei wo
ireokasu rinraku gyokusetsu-sei
Shuzan Shōsha-sho
Human being everyone knows the pleasure to trample upon jade like snow, pure jade like snow-crystals
Written by Shuzan(Akiyama) Shōsha or in Chinese: Qiushan-qiáozhe (Woodcutter of the Autumn Mountain) - Pseudonym
I think your planter is Chinese.
With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Marks, Style, Period, Maker, Value
Posted By: Bill H Fri, Oct 11, 2019

Dear I.Nagy,

Thank you greatly for the translation and new perspective on origins of my planter. I'll remove this piece from its present obscurity in a dark corner and resume my own research toward further identifying this "Woodcutter".

Much obliged,

Bill H.


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