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Subject:Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: Fleck Thu, Sep 13, 2018 IP: 83.86.82.184

Hello,

I recently stumbled across this interesting forum and wanted to ask a question about Japanese scrolls (Kakejiku).

Was it common in Japan, say in the 1800's/1900's, to use/reuse original Chinese (scroll)paintings and use them to make a new Japanese scroll?

In other words, would Japanese people also put up scrolls with Chinese paintings in their tokonoma? Or were only pure Japanese productions used?

I ask, since there are many Chinese scrolls and scroll paintings that depict pretty much the same subjects, like lucky symbols etc., as can be seen in Japanese made scrolls. So, were they used interchangeable?

Thank you very much,

Fleck


Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: Fleck Fri, Sep 14, 2018

In addition some pictures of an older scroll. I was told that the painting/artwork is Chinese, but the scroll was picked up in Japan by someone I know.

The painting seems late 1800/early 1900-ish, but the scroll more recent, say 1940-ish. Could it be that it is indeed a Chinese painting, that was reused on a Japanese scroll?

Would someone be able to help me translate the writing and both red seals? Any additional information on this particular piece would greatly be appreciated.

Thank you,

Fleck








Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: rat Mon, Sep 17, 2018

ah, now I understand your question. Yes, the Japanese have remounted Chinese scrolls as warranted for preservation, conservation, or repair/restoration. Traditional scrolls can be disassembled after soaking in water because they are glued to their backing and the surrounding silk is glued on with a paste made from wheat starch. The soaking also aids cleaning.

This picture is entirely Japanese though I think

Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: Fleck Fri, Sep 14, 2018

And three additional pictures, in case the links above don't work. :)

Thank you,

Fleck







Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: rat Fri, Sep 14, 2018

The Japanese have been collecting Chinese scrolls for over 1,000 years, though I don't know what the display practices in the tokonoma specifically were at that time. I would think that would be up to the owner and whether s/he thought the painting represented the mood they sought. Many of the earliest surviving Chinese scrolls in Japan were collected in Muromachi times. Here's a link to an older article about how Chinese painting style affected Japanese painting style at that time: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2384260?seq=3#metadata_info_tab_contents

Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: Fleck Sun, Sep 16, 2018

Good morning,

Thank you for your reply! I guessed that it would be a tough question... But, in your opinion it’s not totally unthinkable/inapropriate to put up a Chinese scroll in a Japanese alcove?

Can someone tell me a bit more about the particular scroll, shown above? Is it indeed Chinese? And what would the writing/seals tell? Much appreciated!

Fleck

Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: rat Mon, Sep 17, 2018

yes, should be ok to do that but I think this painting may be entirely Japanese. Date seems to be 1923, though 1983 is not out of the question. Am not sure of the artist's actual name; several pseudonyms are offered here. I. Nagy may be able to look him/her up though

Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: I.Nagy Wed, Sep 19, 2018

Seal is sure,
僊嶺 -Senryō
Probably Wada Senryō 和田僊嶺 (Year of birth and death unknown)
Painter in Nagoya in the middle of 19.C.
He used the 僊嶺 signature with 仙嶺 seal. I could find only 2-3 pictures from him on the net. The question is, is this picture that old.

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: Fleck Thu, Sep 20, 2018

Hi I. Nagy,

Thank you for Your opinion!

So, just to be sure: This painting is certainly Japanse and not Chinese in both of your opinions? The writing and seals are 100% Japanese?

The previous owner told me that he thought, that the painting was from the late 1800s, but that the scroll itself was from around the 1940s. The older painting of the plum blossoms in moonlight was reused on a 'newer' scroll. Could that be? Was that common practice?

It certainly looks very old and certainly not artificially altered to look older. It's at least from before World War II, I would say.

Thank You guys very much,

Fleck

Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: Fleck Wed, Sep 19, 2018

Thank you for the additional info. So, the writing on the upper left seems to be Japanese in your opinion?
Would be great if someone else could have a look at the writing as well and possibly be able to decypher it...

Thanks a lot,

Fleck

Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: I.Nagy Thu, Sep 20, 2018

My tentative reading of the inscriptions,
癸亥初夏春寫於山幸亭 x
Painted in the Yamasachi-Pavilion in the Year of Water-Pig (..1863,1923,1983) at Beginning of Summer
椿江釣人 Tsubaki-e Tsuribito - Fish Angler of Tsubaki Inlet (Sobriquet of artist)

With regards,
I.Nagy

Subject:Re: Chinese painting/art on Japanese scroll?
Posted By: Fleck Fri, Sep 21, 2018

Good morning,

Thank You very much for the interesting details, makes it a lot more meaningful.

One final question: Is this painting and/or the writing certainly Japanese, or could it be Chinese as well?
I thought that the Japanese used Chinese characters (Kanji?) as well, so is it possible to determine with certainty if it's Japanese or Chinese?

Based on the previous answers I get the feeling that you both are convinced that it's not Chinese.

Fleck


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