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Subject:Is this from a shipwreck?
Posted By: Endre Wed, Dec 06, 2017 IP: 2600:1700:6a40:2460:

I apologize for asking so many questions. I noticed a footed dish on the forum earlier, and recently have been going back through some of our things, and while researching this dish again- I thought that it just looked different than some of the others I have seen. I posted this one before, but the photos were stretched somehow. My initial conclusion is minyao from the third quarter of 19th century. I was looking at some shipwreck items and notice a similarity to this different look that I see on my dish. Particularly spoons from the Desaru. They look cloudy and bubbly and some look faded. Is this indicative of shipwreck items. I’m not very familiar with production errors or firing errors in the process so I apologize if it is an absurd question. I’m not 100% on my initial dating, and definitely not sure of a possible wreck item. Any insights would be wonderful, and very appreciated

Subject:Re: Is this from a shipwreck?
Posted By: Endre Thu, Dec 07, 2017

I wanted to add two more pictures for consideration. I noticed the motifs on bowls from a web video of mid Ming blue and white bowls. I guess these motifs can be seen any time since then, and I know many ships have sunk since then. Again I have no idea about desalination or the technicalities of pottery of the past, or of recent pottery. So, any feedback is great and very much appreciated.

Subject:Re: Is this from a shipwreck?
Posted By: Endre Fri, Dec 08, 2017

I wanted to add a little more info and three more photos, and then I will let this post ride. I really look forward to any reply’s. It appears that there is a very large window of possibilities. It does not appear that the bubbles themselves are indicative of a shipwreck. I did find examples of Ming footed dishes like this one on live auctioneers and one on eBay. I learned a little bit about the bubbles on Gotheborg and I read a little bit about glazes on the sample of Dr.Irwin Ebook titled The beauty of simple perfect early ceramic collections. About this object, it is 5cm high and 11cm wide at the top rim. I paid 1$ plus tax at a thrift shop. It displays no hollow lines, as mentioned on Gotheborg. It rings nicely and light passes through. The bubbles look consistent for genuine. The glaze is thick clear and “fatty?”. My eyes are not good enough to comment on the cobalt. My main goal with any item I seek help with, is to have correct information when all of this stuff is passed on. I do not buy to sell. I buy to enjoy, and for the history of things- my kids can sell them if they want. The posts on the forum are all a great learning tool. Whether Ming, Qing, republic, people’s republic, It really doesn’t matter to me how old it is, but older things do have a kind of romance. And again, I do not want to pass on misinformation. With some of your experience and research techniques, I look forward to any input at all, and would be grateful. Thanks for viewing

Subject:Re: Is this from a shipwreck?
Posted By: Endre Fri, Dec 08, 2017

One more, sorry. I see similarity, and differences. Just wanted to put out all of the information I was able to gather, and hoping to hear some thoughts, thanks

Subject:Re: Is this from a shipwreck?
Posted By: Endre Mon, Dec 11, 2017

I was hoping to hear some feedback from those who are more educated than myself. Undoubtedly there are more people who have or will have these and may have questions, so I will update this with my non professional opinion sighting museum examples, eBay examples, and observations about this piece, which I can hold in my hand. The border motif on the rim can be seen at least as far back as Yuan. Here is a link to Smithsonian,

The Hallwyl Museum has a benjarong example stating early 19thc origin China,ål_tillverkade_i_Kinasom_expotgods_för_Thailand,_1700-tal_-_Hallwylska_museet_-_99415.tif

The National museum of Vietnamese history has an example of another benjarong dish described as 19th century Thailand stoneware found in Hon Dam in 1991- this was not submitted by the museum itself,,_19th_century_AD,_stoneware_-_found_in_Hon_Dam,_Kien_Giang_province_in_1991_-_Museum_of_Vietnamese_History_-_Ho_Chi_Minh_City_-_DSC05879.JPG

The exposed portion on the base of my dish is comparable in my opinion to an exposed piece found at Ca Mau and featured at koh,

eBay examples described from many different time periods,
362176875535, 391940598477, 332430491319, 182601364838, 391941828251

There are over 1,000 shipwrecks in South East Asia alone, some are known and some are known only locally, and there are more to be discovered. Most have been and are looted by fishermen and treasure hunters. I have no way to determine if this was ever at the bottom of the ocean, so I will say not likely from a shipwreck. My dish seems to have been made in a wood burning or coal fired kiln, it has varying sized bubbles, there does appear to be a sheen on the cobalt near the surface when held at an angle in the light, no hollow lines, stylized motif which is mirrored on the under side, single stroke painting technique, no etched stencil lines, thinly potted on the top and more heavy on the base, the top rim is slightly warped and not perfectly circular, light passes through, it rings nicely, glaze appears to be quite thick. Looking at all that I have been able to find as far as references, I think this is early 19th century. However, I think this shape may have been used prior. I am not an expert, and I really hope someone who is more familiar could educate me more on this, I know some of you are extremely busy or uninterested, and a no reply is understandable. I will say China early 19th century for South East Asian market. Thank you for looking. Big apology to Dr.Iwan for misspelling his name in previous post

Subject:Re: Is this from a shipwreck?
Posted By: Wil hugers Mon, Dec 18, 2017

I think they are salt dishes,made in china.
I have several,al found in Thailand,i think they are late 19 century.
In thailand they are still used as offering dishes for the Buddha statues.
They are still being made for the market in Thailand.
Yours is late 19 century,I think.



Subject:Re: Is this from a shipwreck?
Posted By: wil hugers Mon, Dec 18, 2017

Here some pictures of the dishes i have.
The fore most is the oldest i think(early 19 century)
It is more pottery than porcelain.
The big one is i think 20 century.
The other are late 19 century.



Subject:Re: Is this from a shipwreck?
Posted By: Endre Tue, Dec 19, 2017

Wil, thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate it very much. The only blue and white ones I have found for comparison have been on eBay, and the dates seemed to be all over the scale. It makes sense I suppose, if this shape was and is popular for the Thai market. The one I mentioned at the museum was called stoneware from Thailand. And that threw me off a little bit, as mine is definitely porcelain. I thought it might have been for Vietnam market, being blue and white- and somewhat like the Chu Dau wares in a more stylized way- but was unable to find one. These are small dishes, but I like them, will be good to offer lotus seed candies! Thank you again for your reply, insight, and sharing your collection.


Subject:Re: Is this from a shipwreck?
Posted By: Endre Wed, Dec 20, 2017

Hi Wil,

I came upon this, and thought that you might be interested. This is a case of donor artifacts exhibited at the museum in Hue. The dishes in the case are mostly from 18 and 19 century. The one on the bottom corner looks like our dishes, unfortunately the plaque is not visible. I guess there are some of these floating around in Viet Nam as well. Thanks again for sharing, I appreciate it very much! | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries |