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Subject:Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: Xbet Wed, Aug 30, 2017 IP: 86.142.159.212

Hello,

I have an ivory work house with 2 signatures, one a seal, the other characters. Its approx 5.5 inches high. If anyone could translate I would be very grateful. I am guessing it is from the Meiji period.

I have also posted a pair of bowls on the "message board" I probably should have posted it in the main Asian art forum so I will add a link.

https://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAllSub&Id=102977

Thank you for reading/viewing.

Kind regards,

Xbet.







Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: I. Nagy Thu, Aug 31, 2017

The engraved two characters read in Chinese,
實雅 Shiyi (Real elegancy)
The lower part of character 實 boldly corrupted.
I tried to decipher the seal's seal script without
result,so far.
With regards,

Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: Xbet Fri, Sep 01, 2017

Hello Nagy,

Thank you so much for another translation, I will post a clearer photo of the seal mark in case it helps being able to translate it. I have a few other items that I will post later that have been driving me crazy trying to understand, I don't want to cause to much spam.

Wow, I never suspected it would be Chinese, I have never seen any Chinese ivory like this(not that I have any doubt of your translation) I just bought it on a spur of the moment as Tokyo school (I had to have it). But I will have to restart all research into this as I have only looked in Japanese.

Thank you again.

Kind regards,

Xbet



Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: I. Nagy Sat, Sep 02, 2017

Dear Xbet,
Thank you for the readable clear photo of seal
cartouche.
It reads, 竹内 Takeuchi (Surely Japanese name)
From the net I have found out the name of Takeuchi
Kyuichi (1857-1916) ivory netsuke and wood carver
in Japan. Cofounder of Tokyo Fine Art School (1889) (Teacher of the Sculpture Department).
He might have been the sculptor of your ivory
work.You have to consult an expert.
I have to amend the reading of the first two
characters to Japanese.
It sounds, "Jitsuga" 實雅 same meaning (Real elegancy)
With regards,

Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: Guy Sat, Sep 02, 2017

IMO, this is indeed a complex Japanese, Meiji era okimono signed 'Jitsuga' 'Kanga' or 'Tomimasa' (實雅), sealed 'Chikuen' or 'Takemaru' (竹円).
Both the characters 實 and 雅 are encountered in the art names (gô) used by members of the Tokyo Sculptors Society.

Cfr. a similar carving signed 實雅:
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18823/lot/268/

Guy.

Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: I. Nagy Sun, Sep 03, 2017

I have opened the Bonhams auction site suggested by Guy, and found the same 實雅 characters in clear seal script read Jitsuga/Minotada.
As of the upperpart of the carving clearly
reads 實 jitsu (実 abrev.) and not 寛 kan , I
would insist to the Jitsuga reading.
As of the Takeuchi's uchi (内) the 3rd diagonal stroke beginns from outside top of the 2nd stroke (cleaarly seen on the seal script) can
be only 内 uchi and not 円 maru.
That is the reading is Takeuchi.
Putting together: Takeuchi Jitsuga.(or Sanemasa)
If you write "Takeuchi Jitsuga ivory" into
your browser, under "The Mitsui Exhibition-ary...." you will find one of his works under No.30. (Country House)
In Japanese one should write "竹内実雅" in the
abreviated form, and will find a pix under the "Images" one of his work titled "Carved country
house".
I also owe Guy many thanks for the hint.
With regards,



 




Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: Guy Sun, Sep 03, 2017

Sorry, the seal reads indeed 竹内 - 'Takeuchi' or eventually 'Chikudai'.
Don't think if this okimono can be attributed directly to Takeuchi Kyûichi (竹内久一 ). Apparently he used only the name 'Kyûen' (久遠) as 'gô' (art name).
IMO, the craftsman is probably Takenaka Sanemasa (active around 1910, 武中實雅) whereas the signature must be read and pronounced here in the KUN-reading as 'Sanemasa'. This name is mentioned in 'The Golden Age of Japanese Okimono' by Laura Bordignon in Appendix Two - The Tokyo Sculptors' Society: List of Ivory Carvers, p. 294.

For a further search google "Sanemasa Ivory".

See also item 181 here:
https://archive.org/stream/catalogueofextra00amer/catalogueofextra00amer_djvu.txt

and

Item 716:
http://research.nyarc.org/digital_projects/gilded_age/31289009872625.pdf

Guy.

Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: Gman Sun, Sep 03, 2017

I'm sure not seeing anything in the photos to make me feel comfortable with calling this ivory.

How about a size?
What is the diameter of the base?
Is it made up of pieces?

How about showing some Schreger lines?
The signature shown does not look carved.
Just sayin'.

Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: Xbet Mon, Sep 04, 2017

Hello,
Thank you all so much for such great translation/information. I have been doing a lot of reading into the information given, fascinating! I. Nagy that hut you found has to be from the same artist its almost identical. Again thank you all for the help.

For the exact size its 5 inches tall and 6 inches wide (total including the little flowers) I used a biro in the photo to make it easier to visualise the size. I am fairly confidant it is ivory I have photo'd the base it was hard to lay it down carefully. it is made from mainly 1 piece but there are a few areas that are additional the back to the hut, a section of the flowers are not from the main body and a few other areas. The signature is rather small, I used the pen again to try and show how small so when I have enlarged the image it looses the "ivory look".

Kind regards,

Xbet







Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: Gman Mon, Sep 04, 2017

Please excuse the skepticism, but 95% of all ivory items shown in this forum are not ivory, in fact 95% of all items called ivory at eBay et al are not ivory either, put that together with the fact that you had not mentioned size, and whether there were any pieces added on, and it makes the material ID ambiguous.

The number one identifier for ivory is usually the "Schreger lines" which are crosshatched lines occurring in elephant ivory.

There is another post asking for identification of a signature on an ivory piece which I have added the link to below, which will show the Schreger lines around the edge of the item, if you can find similar lines on your piece, the identification becomes much easier, although there are a few cases where insidious deceivers will find ways to simulate the lines, to mislead the unwary. Usually such simulated lines will be felt as a texture because they are scratched onto the item, whereas the Schreger lines are in the ivory itself.

From the information you included, and the photo of the base, it does look like ivory, but again, there is great financial incentive to build a better mousetrap for simulating ivory, so the Schreger lines is a good place to start.

If your piece is ivory, you will find Schreger lines in less than a minute after seeing them in the photo of the piece linked to below.

Thanks for the additional photos and information, good luck.

URL Title :Schreger lines visible on this piece


Subject:Re: Ivory work hut with signature if anyone could please help identify.
Posted By: Xbet Tue, Sep 05, 2017

Hello Gman,

No I take no offence and scepticism is best when evaluating any art work, I appreciate this and would ask for it with any other items I post(this is why I took a photo showing the whole item so it was not a different item or anything I will add a close up of where the stain is on the base).

Thank you for showing me the picture and explaining, without sounding ungrateful or arrogant I am more of a poor collector I have to use what little knowledge I have learnt to be able to afford to buy the things I like, I had to learn quickly to distinguish elephant ivory and the other types like marine ivory(hornbill is also a tricky one) as a lot of okimonos are made from marine ivory, but thank you for showing and explaining. I had to sell my other ivory items to pay for this, it wasn't cheap(but I mainly like Chinese porcelain).

I completely agree with you on ebay, before the ebay ban on ivory they were bone, celluloid or just plastic. Since the change in regulations if you want ivory just type "bovine bone" I find that most of that is ivory or modern bone/antler carvings.

I am sure there is nothing there that you didn't already know, I really don't want to come across as rude, I am sure you know a lot more than me. I have only just found these forums and want to use them to assist in what I know to people, and the assistance from everyone here has been so kind and great in what I have asked (apart from my bowls but I posted them in the message board they have received on average 1/4 of the views of each of these 2 consecutive posts and was put up a week before, my fault entirely how can someone see something if its not there to be seen! I will probably repost them in a while I don't want to cause spam).

Kind regards,

Xbet.




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