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Subject:Horn plaque with seal marks Chinese or Japanese
Posted By: Xbet Wed, Aug 30, 2017 IP: 86.142.159.212

Hello,

I am not sure if it was to be used as a seal so the writing might be back to front. I cant read Chinese so it also might be upside-down sorry about this.

I also posted a pair of bowls inside the "message board" I realise I should have posted this in the main Asian art forum so I will provide a link

https://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAllSub&Id=102977

Thank you for reading/viewing, any information would be grateful and helpful.

Kind regards,

Xbet.





Subject:Re: Horn plaque with seal marks Chinese or Japanese
Posted By: mikeoz Fri, Sep 01, 2017

Yes it upside down, and yes, it does appear that it was intended to be used as a stamp of some kind.

You mentioned that it was made of horn, but you didn't give a picture of the whole item, not did you give any dimensions, so it is difficult to try to tell you more about it.

The four characters are 漲源錢莊 - literally(character by character)overflow or surplus ; origin or source ; money ; serious. So a message hoping for great wealth.

Subject:Re: Horn plaque with seal marks Chinese or Japanese
Posted By: I. Nagy Fri, Sep 01, 2017

In my understanding the last character ....荘 (zhuang) at the end of personal names denotes
"Manor house or villa of...)
漲源銭荘  Zhang Yuan Qian(Family and courtesy
name) Manor House
or be divided,
漲源   Zhangyuan  (Name of place)
銭荘   Qian (Family name) Manor House
The character are given in mirror image, consquently this is a seal.
With regards,


Subject:Re: Horn plaque with seal marks Chinese or Japanese
Posted By: Xbet Fri, Sep 01, 2017

Hello,

Thank you so much for the translation, it will be very useful/helpful in continuing my research.

May I ask if this lay out of a seal would be a normal layout for marking property belonging to the Qian family?

As a side note I found some great information on Zhang Qian travels, not that there would be any relation I don't think horn would have lasted 2000 years for 1. And the artist Zhang Yuan who's given name was Zhang Qian again just coincidence. But I love to learn about history.

Thank you again for the translation.

Kind regards,

Xbet

Subject:Re: Horn plaque with seal marks Chinese or Japanese
Posted By: Mikeoz Sun, Sep 03, 2017

Dear I Nagy,

I respect your scholarship, and the way you explain things. My Chinese language teacher used to say that the meaning of Chinese characters expanded "by extension, by extension, by extension", so I was not surprised by your explanation that Zhuang could mean "a Manor House", even though I could only find that meaning in the most modern of my dictionaries - as a second level of meaning in one and as a third level of meaning in another.

So I thought I would refer to my trusted 1912 Giles dictionary to see how the character developed "by extension". You might be interested in what I found.







Subject:Re: Horn plaque with seal marks Chinese or Japanese
Posted By: Xbet Fri, Sep 01, 2017

Hello,

Thank you for the translation it will be a big help.

Sorry I forgot the measurements, the top is approx 2 inches by 2 inches, and about 3.5 inches high.

I asked a reputable auction house about it and I was told it was rhinoceros horn due to this it was not something that they wanted due to the changes in regulations on selling animal remains. And they gave me little information on it (I don't want to sell it just get some information on it), the blue is some resin like glue that I was told was used to stick the top back on. I have asked a restorer about removing it, but I was told it would be dangerous because the horn wasn't kept moistened from the inside and removing the glue could cause the horn to perish.
That is all the information I have. I didn't call it a seal as I have never seen a seal with a picture in the middle (not that I have seen a lot of seals) is this indicative of any time period?.

Again thank you for the translation, I will be using both to continue looking for more information on its origin.

If you need more photos I will take them.

Kind regards,

Xbet.





Subject:Re: Horn plaque with seal marks Chinese or Japanese
Posted By: I. Nagy Sat, Sep 02, 2017

Dear Xbet,
The rhino horn always has been considered as an important material for large bodied Oriental seals.Stylized pictures on the seals do not have any indicative to determine the age. Your seal looks like a piece from the end of Qing era.
With regards,

Subject:Re: Horn plaque with seal marks Chinese or Japanese
Posted By: Xbet Mon, Sep 04, 2017

Dear I.Nagy,

Again thank you for the assistance and verification of the translation, it has been a great help in attempting to locate the origin of the seal(also I wasn't even sure if it was a seal or plaque as I didn't even know what way round the writing went). I know it is like trying to identify an English wax seal used in the 19th century to a family with just 3 letters, but its interesting for me to try. So again thank you also to Mikeoz, thank you for the images of the 1912 translation, it is interesting to me how the language has formed (even though I know basically nothing outside of standard reign marks, the only reason I knew "Yu" instead of "Nian" on the bowls is thanks to "Gerald Davison's" book on marks).

Kind regards, and with much respect,

Xbet


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