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This painting/scroll was purchased by my grandmother in Hong Kong or Guangzhou(?). It was then brought over to the states before there were any restrictions. At the time, she was told that it was an authentic Zhao Mengfu (1254-1322) painting. Unfortunetly, I do not have much more info on the piece (she passed).

I recently did some research and noticed the same stamp/chop on an original painting of his, but I did not come across the scroll I have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Mengfu

Can anyone shed some light on this....real or reproduction? Any comments appreciated. Thanks!

Great brush work and color. The calligraphy is very good and reminiscent of Zhao Mengfu's works.

It has a good chance of being authentic if we consider the calligraphy and the known fact that many of Zhao Mengfu's works are still circulating in private hands.

Personally I like it a lot but I have my doubts as to its authenticity. My intuition is it's a Qing dynasty fake.

First clue is the paper. It does not look like Yuan dynasty yellowing. This does not look 700 year old.

Second the clue is the seal... why is there an underlying black trace?

Third is the horse. The pose is generic and the the horse is not as lively and rounded as the real works. The hoofs are a little small and not as pronounced.

Also I don't understand why there's a white and black horse. What i mean is that's not the color of preferred horses in China plus white and black are not especially symbolic of anything good.

My suggestion is get a paper analysis done by a reputable lab to settle this once and for all.

If this is a real work it will be worth millions and much more than the few hundred dollars you may have to pay for the analysis.

Thank you very much for your insight. Qing Dynasty is 1662-1722? Is paper analysis easy to find? I'm in the Los Angeles area.

You could try Chicago appraisers association which offers lab testing. I'm not sure about their expertise on Asian art though. I've never personally used their services before.

http://www.chicagoappraisers.com/laboratory-testing.html


For most accurate results you should go to china. I know that in Beijing you can go to Beijing Hongqian cultural relic stow appraisal center. They are composed of a panel of experts from various museums and the state cultural bureau. Then again once you bring it into china you can never take it out. You would then have to auctioned it in China. Which by no means will net you anything less than what you would get in the states.

One other questions is when did your grandmother purchase this and how much did she pay for it.
That would also give us some clues as to its authenticity. Zhao Mengfu's works are always in short demand.

I really wish I had more details. My "elders" in the family do not know or are no longer with us. I imagine it was at a fairly high price, because my grandmother was an art/antique collector and at the time she was not allowed to bring large amounts of funds out of China into to the states, so she instead brought this piece. Thanks again.

Just bring it to Bonhams at San Bruno Califonia they have a Chinese painting specialist. Let her have a look she should be able to tell you.

Thanks for the referral.

The chop marks look bad. Did not look like original marks left by real chops but look like seal marks were hand drawn on painting with black lines and then covered up with red inks. Highly suspicious as Hallo said. Also white color is "funeral" color for Chinese, especially found on a color painting. B

Thanks for the info Bill. Can you elaborate on this statement:

"Also white color is "funeral" color for Chinese, especially found on a color painting."

Hi Mason,
These horses are not those depicted by funerary ceramics of the Song dynasty, but rather those of the 18th century. If you Google Lang Shining (Giuseppe Castiglione) you will see a similarity with horses gifted to the Qianlong Emperor.

There was a noted change in the shapes and breeds of horses popular over the dynasties, ranging from the sturdy chariot horses of the Han dynasty, to the sleek polo horses of the Tang, to the utilitarian work horses of the Song and Yuan, to the war ponies of the Ming, and then the fat overfed horses of the Qianlong court.

How old this painting is I do not know.

But I wonder how Bill explains Kazak's donation of a white horse to the Emperor, if white always means death.

Regards
Tony

Hi Mason
regarding the horses.

Heres a quote from the artist
堂自题画马云："我自幼好画马，自谓颇画物之性"
which roughly translates to "since childhood i loved painting horses. I feel I can paint the spirit of the animal."

The question is do you feel the hoses in question capture the spirit of these magnificent animals?

To compare I'll post a much more well know work of his.

In the ancient Chinese book, “Zhou Gong Jie Meng” (Interpretation of Dreams by Zhou Gong) written by Zhou Gong, or Ji Dan, younger brother of the Zhou Emperor Wu Wang, Jifa (1046 BC – 1043 BC) and uncle of Zhou Emperor Cheng Wan, Ji Song (1042 BC – 1021 BC). He was also the author of the famous book, Yi Jing (The Book of Changes). In the book, this was said about riding a white horse:

乘白馬者主疾病

“Sickness would be upon who rides a white horse.”

The whole book of “Zhou Gong Jie Meng” can be found:

http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E5%91%A8%E5%85%AC%E8%A7%A3%E5%A4%A2

http://www.ezfate.com.tw/diy/dream.html

http://gate.tycool.com:82/gate/big5/www.tycool.com/bbs/archive/index.php/t-163.html

http://q.sohu.com/forum/15/topic/2744492

http://www.okjm.cn/m00/001_01.asp (about Zhou Gong)


The following articles shows that that there is a major difference between the attitude of the Han people versus the Tibetan people toward the white color:

http://www.51yala.com/Html/200776105522-1.Html

To the Han people (see paragraph attached), the white color symbolizes everything that is meaningless, tasteless, cunning, robbery, misery and white color was used for “funerals” (the deceased’s families would wear white garments, white caps, white shoes). Red is the lucky color to them and were used in all kinds of celebrations such as red eggs (for baby’s one month old birthday celebration), red envelope (lucky money given in Chinese new year), red garments (for wedding), red candles and red lanterns (wedding or birthday). That is why you never wear white garments in Chinese new year, that is why you never use white candles or white lanterns in any Chinese celebrations, that is why you never give lucky money in white envelope (money in white envelope were only given to the family of the deceased in a wake or funeral; the deceased’s family also return either coins in white or candies in white for thanks). That is also why the seal marks on any Chinese paintings were always made with reddish ink (never in black unless the painter was already deceased and did not leave the chop mark himself).

However, for the Tibetan people, white color symbolizes purity, holiness and luck. Therefore white color is treated completely different by them than that of the Han people. Since Qing emperors are Manchurians and therefore not Han, it is possible they may have different attitude toward white color.

Bill

Bill, as always it is interesting to read your postings because you usually suggest interesting topics for further thought. I have posted this painting from my collection as it has heavy white pigments and as you wrote about white = "funeral" you maybe able to help me explain the significance of the heavy white colour. I have seen it before on other old chinese paintings so I'm curious to read your opinion.
Regards,
Alan

Regarding the use of white colour pigments.
White pigment is used to simulate snow or sometimes for a less artistic reason of covering up bad drying techniques which led to the appearance of unappealing yellow molds spots. he white pigment is splashed on to the paper leaving large amounts of random white dots.

Hi, Alan:

Thank you for your comment. I really do not know a lot about Chinese paintings and therefore probably not qualified to comment on your painting. Halo or some other members may be able to do a better job. I only know that white has always been used as a color for "funeral" since at least Han dynasty (for sure) or earlier (not sure).

I cannot tell where the white pigment on your painting was applied to the painting on purpose after the finish of the painting or what. If you have more examples, please show them here. I just find it very odd that there is group of 3 birds on the left and 1 bird (all by itself) on the right of your painting. To me any singular numbers repeatedly shown in any Chinese arts is quite odd. I do not know if the painter did that on purpose (like the missing man formation used by the U.S. Air force in the funeral of a fallen pilot).

I always bought a pair of vases, a pair of lamps because it is always good to have a pair. Just like the double happiness. (*Very often, many eBay dealers label a pair of vases as two identical vases. They did not know it actually should be mirror images of each other to be called a pair)

Please give me more info about these white pigments on these older Chinese paintings you have seen. I may have to do some more researches.

Thanks.

Bill
Bill

Bill,
More symbolism of "funeral"?

Buddhist white lotus
Snow-white skin ladies in "Dream of the Red Chamber"
Gentleman’s White jades
Ming Dehua White porcelain Guan-yin and Zhengwu
Yuan/ Ming/ Qing Blue and white porcelain

Nice painting Alan. Thank you for sharing it.

Thank you for your response.
I have attached a picture of the label on the scroll for you to review.
Both the signature on the painting and the label are of a much later date than the painting. However, my research on the painting to date has offered the possibility that the painting may have been created in the 15th-16th century by an artist from a group of mid-Ming flower and Bird masters.
The style is based on the Five Dynasties and Song periods (10th-11th centuries) which is when XuXi (Hsu Hsi) lived.
If you would like to see more pictures of the painting ( close-ups, details ) please let me know.
B/R, Alan

sure, would love to see closeups of your scroll Alan. if you haven't already shot them, perhaps the leaves, the group of birds, and the vines/trunk of the tree? yes, label is more recent, attributing the work to Xu Xi but we have no reliable works by Xu (though the Shanghai Museum has an amazing painting of bamboo and rocks in snow attributed to him that is probably from Xu's time though it doesn't seem to match what texts describe as his style)

Thank you again for your response. I have croped sections of the painting for you to take a look at. However, if you would like to receive really good pictures in order to get a bird's eye view of the painting (larger than 100kb)please mail me direct and I will mail them to you. (the silk and pigments are more explicate)
I read somewhere that there is also a XuXi painting in the Louvre?
B/R
Alan

I show a similar painting, attr. to Li Gonglin, on my website.



URL Title :A Collection of Classical Chinese Paintings

Totally agreed with Hallo's assessment of this painting. I believe that it is a very fine replica of early Qing.

I've been thinking this for a while now and one thing came into mind.

This may also be the forgery by artist Zhang DaQian

Here's an article noting one of Zhang's master work fooling experts at the Museum of Fine Arts.
It too had Zhao Mengfu's hand writing.

interesting pointfrom the article "The museum’s lab found that all the painting’s materials would have been available in the 10th century—except for a white that wasn’t developed and in use until the 1920s."

http://thephoenix.com/Boston/Arts/53789-ZHANG-DAQIAN-PAINTER-COLLECTOR-FORGER-A-TRADIT/

Zhang Da Qian would not copy. Horse and Gong Bi Hua(elaborate work) were not his specialties. He was most famous in Shan Shui(Mountains and Water) and Po Mo(Splashing Ink).

Zang Da Chien did a lot of copies in his early days.

As he said: to copy the great masters is a must process when learning to draw.

However, I do not believe he forged the masters signature, or seals.

His painting subjects were of all kind, including fish, shrimps, birds, cows, cats, dogs, butterflies, horses etc...
But yes, he is most famous for his landscapes & waterfalls & scholar's portrait.
His "splash" style that came at the end of his life, due to eyesight problems according to some.

Here are a couple of his horse paintings.

I want to thank everyone for the plethora of insightful information. I am currently looking for a reputable appraiser/specialist in the Southern California area (any suggestions would be appreciated). I will let you know what I find. out.

I will also be posting some other pieces from my grandmothers collection as soon as i get the photos taken. I appreciate your input.

Whatever you do, don't spend any money on it: this is not a Zhao Mengfu painting, and it is not a Zhang Daqian fake of a Zhao Mengfu painting, though the second photo that Pierre posted by Zhang refers to both a painting by Zhao Mengfu (and lesser relatives) in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum, NY, and to one part of a painting of five horses and grooms by Li Gonglin, believed lost in Japan.

regarding the photos above: the black and white is one of five horses from the Li Gonglin scroll believed lost in Japan, the color photo is the Zhao Mengfu portion of the Metropolitan Museum's handscroll. There is a copy of this handscroll in the Yale University museum collection. The Met scroll is on view with a group of other fine fine works of theirs until mid Sept 2008 if anyone has the oppy to visit.

i'm sorry to say there's a lot of poor information on this thread.

on colors used in chinese painting, please read Jerome Silbergeld's and Amy McNair's translation of Yu Fei'an's "Chinese Painting Colors"

Zhang Daqian did indeed forge seals, signatures, and calligraphy. Fu Shen, then a curator at the Freer Gallery in Washington DC, discovered several hundred forged seals in Zhang's Brazil home. Unfortunately they remain unavailable for study.

The inscription by Zhao Mengfu on the Boston Zhang Daqian forgery is on a work falsely ascribed to Guan Tong. The Zhao inscription on that work is worse than the inscription on this work and would never be confused for Zhao's hand today. The calligraphy on this scroll is the single element here that remotely resembles Zhao's real hand.

Mason, the LA county museum of art has some decent Chinese paintings, you might want to contact someone there for a viewing, but in my view this work was made not long before your grandmother acquired it.

To idio_tic (above post) and all forum members.

You are invited to visit my blog, where I posted a similar image, attr. to Li Gonglin. Your comments are very welcome.

http://chinesepaintingcollection.blogspot.com/

A Collection of Classical Chinese Paintings

Scroll down to Li Gonglin - Two horses

I am uploading the image hoping it will work this time (I did try unsuccessfully in an earlier post)







URL Title : A Collection of Classical Chinese Paintings

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